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Advice: Artist with Conflicting Morals

I need some advice, so I'll use a hypothetical.

Say you've put a down payment on a commission that the artist has deemed it nonrefundable. At this time the commission has not been started, no supplies purchased.

The artists now after being paid starts openly supporting something you're VERY against using social media. You no longer want to support the artist or be associated with them.

Is it fair that given the situation, you ask for the deposit back and cancel the commission?

EDIT: Just want to clarify, this IS NOT HAPPENING. I just felt like in this current climate it would be good to know!

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Comments

( 21 comments — Leave a comment )
vcrshark
Apr. 19th, 2018 06:43 pm (UTC)
I think it would not be. You presumably entered into a contract with this artist and the deposit is nonrefundable. If you agreed to the artist's TOS (presumably you have since the artist agreed to begin business with you) that included the acknowledgement that if you needed to cancel for whatever reason, you would not get the deposit back. At this point you'd only be in your rights to cancel the slot, but you would not get the deposit back.
metallik_hasse
Apr. 19th, 2018 11:00 pm (UTC)
That makes perfect sense. I think the best course of action would be to go through with it if it's a large sum. If it's a small amount, I'd explain my reason to the artist politely and call it a loss.
takshadowing
Apr. 19th, 2018 07:06 pm (UTC)
Agreeing with VCRshark on this one.

You've already entered into a contract and agreed to the no refund ToS, especially if you've paid them.
The only things you can do at this point are:
1) Count it as a loss and cancel your commission
2) Go forward with it anyway

With #2, talk to the artist and see if you can request not having your name attached to any public posts; just have it listed as "commission for a client".
metallik_hasse
Apr. 19th, 2018 11:02 pm (UTC)
Not having a name attached is a good idea! If this situation ever actually happens, I'd consider that for larger sums that would be a bummer if I otherwise had to take the loss.
neoscottie
Apr. 19th, 2018 07:53 pm (UTC)
Also agreeing with VCRshark here.

You knowingly entered into the contract with a nonrefundable down payment. If you really want to cancel the commission, you're gonna have to accept the loss of that money.
fawkatronic
Apr. 19th, 2018 10:50 pm (UTC)
I'm gonna echo what everyone else said as well as adding I have been in a very similar situation before. I went ahead with receiving my art and just made a mental reminder to not work with them again as I wouldn't wanna have to read such things when checking up on how the artist is getting along with work.
metallik_hasse
Apr. 19th, 2018 11:04 pm (UTC)
Did you end up keeping yourself anonymous, or was it too late?
fawkatronic
Apr. 22nd, 2018 01:00 am (UTC)
It wasn't a big enough issue for me to consider asking for anonymity over. It was less that I was worried that I would be associated with the things they said and more that I didn't wanna have to see it every time I would check on a commission. So I don't have much input there.
tinysnorlax
Apr. 20th, 2018 03:25 am (UTC)
If you entered a contract that states that it's non-refundable, then your hands are tied. Any other situation where a refund is possible, I'd say it's completely okay to do this.

ETA: Definitely don't say why you're asking for a refund outright, though. I'd personally make a believable excuse. The last thing you need is a fight or drama ensuing for your reasoning.

Edited at 2018-04-20 03:28 am (UTC)
metallik_hasse
Apr. 20th, 2018 03:55 am (UTC)
I think it might be worth letting them know once the refund is issued. It might show them their behavior is costing them business.
tinysnorlax
Apr. 20th, 2018 05:17 am (UTC)
That's fair, but I'd still be careful. I have heard of cases where people have gone on harassment campaigns over things like this.
metallik_hasse
Apr. 20th, 2018 07:07 am (UTC)
Hm, can you elaborate a bit on what you mean?
tinysnorlax
Apr. 20th, 2018 07:45 am (UTC)
I'll give an example through my own experience, so hopefully that explains what I'm trying to say.

I personally have experienced large amounts of harassment and hate in my inbox as well as attacks on my reputation after giving a refund to a client without warning or explanation. I didn't explain why, I just said I couldn't work with them any longer. I kept it civil and short.

They later found out I no longer wanted to work with them because of their political views- they were very right-wing, and being trans/poc myself, I wasn't okay with working with someone with those views. I spotted them being openly hateful on their twitter and tumblr.

I later found out it was the client sending some of their friends/acquaintances after me and even the client doing it themselves after putting a tracker on my tumblr. It lasted 1-2 weeks until they were caught and I blocked them/outed them for their behavior.

I've seen people of certain political views have no issue starting hate campaigns toward individuals over disagreements, artists or not. It's just best to be careful.

Edit: Spelling

Edited at 2018-04-20 07:48 am (UTC)
metallik_hasse
Apr. 20th, 2018 08:01 am (UTC)
That's disturbing, you reported them here, right? I DEFINITELY want to avoid this person.

It's interesting that demographic likes to play the victim once someone holds them accountable for their behavior. I had to block a potential client on twitter because the content they demanded I draw for them. They immediately spun it like I was fascist for not wanting to draw kiddie porn.

That's why I asked in this post, I'm interested in the changing scene furry is becoming.

Think it's feasible to make a client TOS covering if the artist, like, openly becomes a nazi or something? Like "As a client I reserve the right to a refund of the unfinished work portion if the artist uses hate speech in a public forum." It sounds a bit out there, but is it something we as clients should explore to protect our image?
tinysnorlax
Apr. 20th, 2018 11:59 am (UTC)
It was years ago, so unfortunately I did not have the courage to report them. I wish I did, though. It was more of a "I don't want to be harassed even further, so I'm going to ignore this person and hope they get bored" after outing them, and that method did work out.

I actually have a clause in my TOS:

"If the artist is the one to cancel the commission, the client will be refunded in full (100% of the original cost). The artist may cancel and refund a commission for reasons including, but not limited to:

- Rude or inappropriate behavior" (this is just one bullet point)

I may have to add hate speech to it.

As for a client TOS, I am not well-versed in that so I'm not sure x_x A mod may be better suited to answer that question. Sorry!!

Edited at 2018-04-20 12:01 pm (UTC)
kstormcrow
Apr. 21st, 2018 05:52 pm (UTC)
Regarding the idea of a 'Client ToS', I don't think there's much point in that because it's not something that's going to Trump an artist's ToS.
They're the one providing the service (Terms of Service), and you as a client are coming to them to provide what you can't do for yourself. Especially in terms of a popular artist, the uniqueness of what they're providing gives them more bargaining power here-- they can find other clients, but you'd be much harder-pressed to find someone who can replicate their art. Basically, if you hand them a ToS that they don't care for, it's much easier for them to just say 'no deal' and walk away.

I think it'd be better to just make sure you do your research about the artists you want to work with. Surprises may happen, that is a risk, but personally I think you'll only drive off artists by handing them an 'official client ToS'-- even if everything on it is perfectly reasonable, I think the entire concept might flag you as someone who might be pushy or a pain to work with.
thaily
Apr. 26th, 2018 04:17 pm (UTC)
I think refusing a refund is only legal if they used the money to pay for materials needed to do the work you commissioned. If they haven't bought it yet, they need to give a refund. And if they have, I'd ask them to just send me the materials I paid for.

As for the motivation, if I commissioned someone and suddenly came out in support of something I find morally abhorrent, yeah I'd demand a refund. People have a right to their own convictions, but people also have the right to vote with their wallet.
trunchbull
Apr. 28th, 2018 12:39 pm (UTC)
Actually, it's completely legal to refuse a refund. The artist is not a bank for someone to have their money returned to them at their own whim, regardless of whether it's an emergency situation or political belief or how the artist is behaving (not toward YOU but to others).

You will never win that in court unless the artist is taking an unacceptably long time to get the product finished. Aside from that, you are not entitled to a refund in this situation.

Example: You buy custom clothes from a store that has a no refunds policy. You later find out they support ANTIFA. Regardless of your own political disagreement with them, you cannot go back and ask for a refund while they're in the process of creating the clothing, regardless of whether they have a downpayment for supplies. Apply this to a store that sells already made clothes. Same thing.

Edited at 2018-04-28 12:42 pm (UTC)
joanmichele
May. 4th, 2018 10:29 pm (UTC)
Ahh yes, the classic quandary.
Honestly, I just avoid this situation altogether by not worrying too much about what my clients believe. I am here to do business, not to be an activist or a moral busybody.
metallik_hasse
May. 5th, 2018 01:02 am (UTC)
RE: Ahh yes, the classic quandary.
If you choose to operate differently, that's fine, but not wanting to support a neo-nazi convicted of child abuse shouldn't be compared to a little old lady have a gossip with her friends (a busybody, as you put it). This is a serious issue that sooner or later, many businesses will have to face, and should be taken seriously.
(Screened comment)
oceandezignz
May. 5th, 2018 03:31 am (UTC)
MOD COMMENT
Advice posts are anonymous. I'm screening your postv since you have inserted a name into this.
( 21 comments — Leave a comment )

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