Hello Artist_Beware! My question is relativity simple.
If an artist agrees to a deadline, and the artist misses the agreed on deadline, is the client allowed to ask for a full refund, regardless of the the artist TOS (ex: no refunds, only partial payment if I've started, ect)?
I thought this might have been a breech in contract between the artist and the client, and the client would then have a choice to end the contact or to renegotiate the contract.
Is this true?
I've been trying to contact the better business bureau about this, but they seem to continue to run me around in circles. A this point they are telling me to call somewhere else atm, but I'll keep everyone updated on what I am told from their end.
If an artist agrees to a deadline, and the artist misses the agreed on deadline, is the client allowed to ask for a full refund, regardless of the the artist TOS (ex: no refunds, only partial payment if I've started, ect)?
I thought this might have been a breech in contract between the artist and the client, and the client would then have a choice to end the contact or to renegotiate the contract.
Is this true?
I've been trying to contact the better business bureau about this, but they seem to continue to run me around in circles. A this point they are telling me to call somewhere else atm, but I'll keep everyone updated on what I am told from their end.
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If it wasn't a severe emergency or something of the like, it would be good business for the artist to honor the full refund. Keep in mind that if you do get a full refund, that any progress on the work will not be yours. The artist may resell the base pose as they wish to recoup the cost.
With that said, if it were me personally and they were almost done, I'd just extend it slightly. If the image had not even started? Yeah probably would ask for a full refund, myself.
And yes, if you get a refund the work is no longer your's. Here is an interesting question. If a client were to get a full refund, and let's say the artist completed the image to sell prints of, or use, ect.
How would you handle that/feel about it?
I have never heard of this ever happening. I know artist have re-purposed things before (which is perfectly fine) -- but what if the artist completes the work? I wonder if there is some legal issues with that? I am completely unsure on that one. Maybe you can enlightening me? A little off topic, sorry!
Yeah I agree if no WIPs have been sent, or anything I think a refund is in store.
I always get this awkward feeling when I ask for a refund and an artist magically shows me a WIP at that stage. It gives me a feeling that they made the WIP to show me because I had ask for a refund.
What do you think about things like that? I normally just let the artist continue but! yeah!
Lots of hypothetical questions sorry! xD
you could always ask, but especially if the TOS says 'no refunds' i wouldn't be too hopeful.
This "no refunds" jazz from artists is disgusting and making the rest of us look bad. It also gives the commissioner the feeling that they have no rights, which is simply just not true.
First, a No Refunds clause is unenforceable in a court of law if no product has been provided.
Secondly, you can request a refund. If work has started they should refund you a portion equivalent to what has not been completed (IE the difference between colors and inks if they've finished the inks, etc.), or the entirety if they have done no work.
So as you had an agreed deadline you could ask for a partial refund (suggested 20-25%). However unless the art is rendered unusable due to the delay, you are unlikely to get a full refund if work has been done. If you have agreed to a 'no-refund' contract then that makes it more tricky, esp if it's a casual contract.
I think the best would be to ask for a partial discount for the missed deadline if you still want the art.
If the art is no longer relevant due to the missed deadline then you can ask to cancel and get a refund on work not done.
If no work has been done yet combined with the missed deadline, then yes, you could cancel and ask for a full refund.
(Sorry if that was a bit long winded and dry!)
You're absolutely right on this, but with missed deadlines it's one case where the contract actually favours the buyer if nothing specific is set to overrule it.
So unless they did set a specific 'deadline missed' clause with a different course of action(like an initial 25% off for the missed and 5% for every week missed kinda deal) the buyer still retains the option to dissolve the contract for a breach.
I think if a seller offers deadlines they really do need to draw up a contract with a clause like you mention- that sets what the penalty for missing the deadline is. That way they can mitigate the risk of being on the hook for the whole amount + plus any labour.
That's the thing about deadlines, when an artist chooses to accept one they take on a lot more risk than a usual transaction. It's one of the reasons why some artists charge more for deadlined pieces, which I think is fair. The artist takes a risk of missing the deadline and therefore taking a loss for all their work up until the deadline.
The guidelines for what gives you a just reason to miss a deadline are pretty ruthless as well. A lot of the reasons furries use to justify delays and which their customers accept actually wouldn't hold up legally. (I can get into more detail, don't think it's needed here though)
You can choose to renegotiate the deal at this point if you still want the piece, with what ever you feel is a fair amount of a partial refund, but you're under no obligation to do so.
Also BBB probably can't help you if the person selling is not registered as business/sole proprietor. You're better off talking to your state/provincial prosecutor(DA)'s office.
Normally they wont get involved unless it multiple induviduals and high loss amount, but it's worth a try,.
Edited at 2014-09-23 09:28 pm (UTC)
Should they get it? Depends, if the art served a very specific purpose and HAD to be available by a certain time, like as a wedding gift or something? I'd be inclined to agree they should get a refund, maybe even a full refund provided they make no claims to any work (sketches) finished up to that point.
Provided the customer gave a reasonable amount of time before the deadline, even if the artist agreed to the time given. If a customer expects a huge detailed multi-character piece in traditional media in like a week... That's an unrealistic expectation.
But that's opinions, and not American business legalities.
The artist has to look out for themself though, every party in a business deal is responsible for mitigating their own loss. So you need as an artist to consider how much time you need, and to give yourself 'life getting in the way' cushion in addition.
One party can't just enforce a deadline, it has to be agreed on by both parties at the very beginning of the deal. So if the commissioner says one week and you say no way, that's that. You either have a meeting of the minds on the deadline or don't make a deal.
If you do decide to take that multi character, real media piece with only a week to draw it; and it turns out can't it done you have to face that you made a mistake and eat the loss.
I believe they gave me the number to the attorney general office around here and told me to ask them instead. I got a little frustrated and posted here instead to see what everyone thoguht instead.
That is really interesting to know about the BBB tho, I had no idea! I'll be more careful when I look into their rating system.
Back on subject, Yes you can ask for a full refund but depending on what you ordered and what you wanted it for this may not be the best choice. If it was for an important business project and you have seen no work then yes you should ask for a full refund. (this is the situation i believe you are in)
However if it is not for a business purpose or doesn't actually have a due date out side of when the artist agreed to it(but from reading what you have written it seems like it does) and you have seen work, you should contact the artist and see if you could get a partial back. This is just what i would do but you could still get a full refund anyway.
Of course however after you have been refunded the money any artwork that was done by them in this time no longer belongs to you and if you foresee using this artist for future ventures i would defiantly try being polite when asking for your full refund, they might very well give it to you, it is always a nice thing to do before going to paypal as the artist might need some times to get the funds for you. However if they become rude after this i would suggest not using them again.
I mentioned this in an above post, but how do you feel if after a client asks for a refund then the artist shows signs of working on the art AFTER the refund was asked for? Like nothing was shown to the client prior to that point? Would you still ask for a full refund at that point?
In my opinion, at least.
Like the client asks for a refund and the artist says well I have colors done (link), so I can only offer you a partial refund.
This is all of course after the deadline has been missed.
It has the same attitude of when, as kids, my sister would say "Well I WAAAAS going to *nice thing* for you, but now I am not gonna!" not exactly the same, but the feeling is to me.