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Hey, A_B! I'm just here to discuss about something.

I was setting up an account on the site called Sellfy (for the purpose of selling my reference chart bases and stuff) and noticed that not only does it support PayPal, but also supports two PayPal alternatives: one of them being Stripe and the other Paymill.

Now, I'm not familiar with either payment method and haven't used them yet, but both of them seemed secure and all, and I do hope that none of them are to be used for scamming purposes.

What do you guys think about either of them? Should I give Stripe or Paymill a try?

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( 10 comments — Leave a comment )
Aug. 19th, 2014 03:05 am (UTC)
Paymill is run by Trustev I believe, so that's a good sign since that company is focused on ending e-fraud vulnerabilities in online sales. However it's kind of an increased online tracking/monitoring is better for businesses versus online privacy is better for the individual sort of trade off. Basically what Trustev does is analyse the online behaviour/usage history and social media use/type of or lack of proxies or vpns/location of where the buy request to your business' checkout is coming from. The system uses that to decide whether the buyer is likely to be a 'good' buyer or 'bad' buyer and rejects or allows the sale.

http://www.trustev.com/ Check out to 'how it works' there to read more on online-use biometrics and some of the criteria etc.

And just some other links on their Startup of the Year 2013(Europe) win(it's an Irish company) and a Microsoft EU spotlight on the company:



For someone like me, who is one of those muh interwebs freedoms!! people it kind of make me grit my teeth against security methods like this since it encourages all those data collectors on sites most people don't even know run in the bg, and gives even more value to the collected data;
but to protect businesses it's been proven that this kind of profiling/tracking works.

Trustev is geared for large companies with high volume sales, and major security concerns.
Paymill seems to be something they snatched up in it's early stages(it's webpage used to be just be a tumblr blog last year *L*) to gear towards small scale transactions intended for individual to individual sales and small business.

Paymill are saying on their new page that a transaction can be done completely inline on your business' webpage, no redirects at all(like say when you buy a game on Steam with paypal, or gems on Flight Rising and have to do a redirect to pay)- which in theory is more secure.

Honestly the fraud that most furries seem to deal with is not because of any flaw in Paypal's end, or browser hijacking during payments, but because one side of the contract breaches. So I'm not sure how much it would be compared to paypal for most folks who browse A_B- it might be nice for the Euro furs to have a company based in their neck of the woods instead of North America. Trustev is in Ireland, Paymill is in Deutschland.

From a basic price comparison: Chargebacks on Paymill are more expensive by about $4 US as opposed to Paypal; but Fees are up to 0.5% cheaper per transaction(including currency conversion). Also no refund process fee on Paymill as opposed to the $1 on Paypal.

Token keys are used for accepting/binding credit cards,
It might look a little confusing if you aren't familiar with using keys, but they seem to be more than happy to walk you through it in their contact info.
Also that compliance may be required for German folks only.

Right now a lot of Paymill still has some bug issues and features in beta/ Honestly, I'd bookmark the page and check it out again in a couple months to see how the invoicing is progressing and if the login fix is in place.

I can't find anything on TOS about adult artwork.

Edited at 2014-08-19 03:29 am (UTC)
Aug. 19th, 2014 03:34 am (UTC)
I realise I didn't explain this API stuff well, so lemme explain a little better. I went to edit the original but it ended up too long, so I'llk just stick it here.
basically they are assuming you are hosting your own store front or using store front where you run their scripts securely/host encryption libraries. For security reasons they set you up with a testing account first, and you'll use a dummy card and key to test a credit card purchase going through with acceptable security protection for their hosting area, Germany. Then if it passes their testing you set it up with real cards and your account goes 'live' and they send you your live API keys to accept actual payments.
The list of dummy cards is here:
and they have some key libraries for those hosting their own stuff, not using a second party store front:

Basically an API key(Application Programming Interface key) is just a way of preventing someone to abuse a script, and prevent anyone from running the hosted part of the script on Paymill's side without permission. Basically it a way to prevent anyone from siphoning off credit card data by way of a redirect, of code injection(which is what happened with the FA hack this Summer, they used a redirect to siphon off data and have the scripts run but dump whatever data they wanted to them, not the FA server). No API key means that once they script is run it'll shut itself down as soon as the usual end server gets the request. It's like the attempted request gets the secret handshake wrong.

That testing page on the site also discusses briefly testing out the script button for the bridge script.
The bridge script is like the 'pay now' button Paypal has that you can embed basically anywhere.

But I'm not sure if you can accept credit cards that way(through just the bridge) because of the German standards. I couldn't quite get that clear to myself from the site, someone else might know for sure.

Bleh, I'm not great at explaining this kind of thing. I'm sure we have some network admins who know all the ins and outs and can do a better explination.
Aug. 19th, 2014 02:21 pm (UTC)
I can't give an in depth informative posting as the first person did, but right off the bat I noticed both of those have high fees, 2.9%. Have you tried the square marketplace? It seems much more user/small business friendly, and it is the shop and payment all rolled into one. They do take a transaction fee but it is 2.75%. It is treated as a real shop though, so you need to mark digital purchases as 'shipped' or else it eventually refunds the money for you not 'delivering' the goods. You can set the amount of time though before that happens. The nice thing also is if you go to cons you can use the square reader, and everything you entered will already be at the ready for you to charge in person. Also, since those two payment methods are a bit obscure, it might make people wary to want to sign up for yet another account, so I think most of your customers would use PayPal anyway. I'm personally moving away from paypal and really love square, not just their marketplace but their square cash emailing system. But that is getting a bit off topic... :)
Aug. 19th, 2014 03:25 pm (UTC)
My problem with Square is that (the last time I checked) they didn't have a customer service line, they withhold payments above I think $2000 and release them slowly (if at all) and customers are ejected from their offices.
Aug. 19th, 2014 06:44 pm (UTC)
Stripe has a hold-over rather than requesting a reserve amount (as some payment processors do). They'll hold onto funds for up to 7 days before releasing them. For smaller amounts, you can choose to have it released into your account in 2 days (the daily deposit option). You can also choose to have all funds transferred weekly (if a charge clears on Monday, it would deposit into your account the next Monday). (More info. here: https://support.stripe.com/questions/why-does-stripe-sometimes-need-to-extend-a-user-s-transfer-delay-to-seven-days )

Maybe that's why the funds were being held? I only get small payments in (like $25/payment) so I've never had an issue with them "holding" onto my money or extending the hold time. They've always processed it when they said they would process it.

It does suck that they don't have a better way to contact them. They used to have a live chat option, but it seems they've removed it. I've never had any issues getting a response from them via email, and they've always been able to help (even going so far as to process my payment early for me when I updated my account info., which I didn't expect them to do). So far, they've been great, but I can see how they come off as sketchy!

EDIT: Wow, I'm a [redacted], I thought you were talking about Stripe.
..... so I guess Stripe and Square are on par in contactability.

Edited at 2014-08-19 06:48 pm (UTC)
Aug. 19th, 2014 06:49 pm (UTC)
Does Square marketplace let you send out invoices like Paypal does?
Aug. 19th, 2014 06:52 pm (UTC)
I don't think so, it's meant as more of a shop/store front. To request funds you can do that through square cash which is a slightly different service. I don't know what the limits are for square cash transactions as I've mostly used it for smaller amounts - up to $250 so far with no issues.
Aug. 19th, 2014 09:16 pm (UTC)
As of a couple of months ago, yes. Square lets you do invoicing. They've added a bunch of new features, and, frankly, I love them. When Wulfenbahr Arts started, we immediately went to Square for our credit processing needs. We haven't had any snags or reasons to try and contact Customer Service, so I can't say anything to that end.

Putting things in one's square storefront is stupidly easy, once one gets the hang of it. Wulfenbahr Arts - I'm about to do a major reorganizing of our categories, but all I have to do is change the name of the category something is in, rather than needing to re-input. It lets you do inventory tracking, variations, and a whole bunch of good-for-our-business things. The only downside is that you can't specify whether something in your marketplace is Free Shipping or Shipping Amount. We have ours set to $6 flat rate (for USPS Priority shipping), with the ability to add more, on a product entry-by-product entry basis, but we also have a handful of goods that are small enough to go into an envelope, and it should be only $2. In order to make that a possibility, I'd have to set our entire store's inventory to Free Shipping, but we don't do enough through the Square store (or Etsy) to justify marking our prices up enough to cover shipping in an average order (about $2/item, given that people have been ordering 2+ items at a time).

I apologize for how rambly this is. Yes, you can send invoices.

Aug. 19th, 2014 06:34 pm (UTC)
I like Stripe a lot! They're awesome, but as far as I know, they're JUST payment processors (i.e. you can hook them up to a webshop, but you can't send invoices out as you can with Paypal and WePay).

Their CS is very awesome, and I've never had an issue with them. There's no monthly fee, only transactional fees (which are lower than Paypal's, as far as I know. I believe they're 2.9% +$.30/transaction).

You might also be able to accept payments through your mobile phone using Stripe, but I'm not certain.

They're an EXCELLENT alternative to Authorize.net (authorize is usually 2.9% + $60/month or similar). They also pay out to your bank account daily or weekly, depending on what you choose.

If you have a system on a website programmed to work like an invoice system, then you'd be all set with Stripe. I've been using them for the past two years with no issues.

I've never heard of Paymill before, so I can't help there.

WePay is also a service that's similar to Paypal that I like to use, as well as Dwolla. WePay is a little more user-friendly, as it just sets up an invoice and your customer uses it to complete payment just like Paypal or any webshop.
Aug. 19th, 2014 10:17 pm (UTC)
Good to hear about your positive experience with Stripe! And WePay also sounds like a great PayPal alternative, too. I'll be signing up on both them, if that's the case. :D
( 10 comments — Leave a comment )


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