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WHO: Sickboy, Pales, horrorprince.deviantart.com, http://whorrorprince.tumblr.com/

WHERE: deviantart.com, virtualpetlist.com, and furry-paws.com

WHAT: All digital art. The absolute best I can do for screenshot proof is provide the forum post where I discovered him on virtualpetlist.com (see: http://www.virtualpetlist.com/threads/sim-artist-looking-for-work-again.15631/) and on another forum that is now defunct. I recognized him because he went by his alternative name Pales on the defunct forum and I addressed him as Pales which prompted him to message me. I do have those messages but they're text based since they were backed up from the forum software. I never thought I'd have to use them as evidence. Eventually we switched to IM and screenshots will reflect that.

WHEN: I’m copy and pasting what I wrote on another forum as I’ve tried to reword this several times and it’s just too hard for me emotionally. So I hope this suffices. Sorry if it’s too long..

I paid in advance for items in June with a deadline of July. Sickboy didn't meet the deadlines, however, he did give excuses which I was empathetic of. We extended deadlines several times. I often had to ask him for progress. Here is a conversation we exchanged over IM where I asked him about my items and how he addressed my questions.

Although that conversation is dated October, I did ask him two to three times before October, once in July and a separate time in September. The week of September is the time he delivered 7 items and said he would complete the rest that week. I trusted he would, and again paid in advance that week for more items. He has not completed any items since September or that payment.

I again asked him in January to which I received similar responses to the first conversation. Nearly a week later, I discovered that Sickboy had been anonymously mentioning my commission to others, complaining about how I had asked him about my commission, which urged me to cease working with Sickboy altogether. Sickboy explained recently that his tablet broke, that he was depressed over the passing of a friend's cat, etc. I am understanding, but I had been waiting for my commission for almost more than six months before these events transpired. Sickboy has told me an item takes him twenty to thirty minutes to complete.

We originally agreed that he would complete the art, but circumstances changed, I requested that I be refunded, to which he agreed. This correspondence was through DeviantART. He told me he would refund me sometime in the future and when he had the money he'd message me through VPL. I was okay with this. I asked him how he was, just a general "how are you" and he blocked me from DeviantART. There is absolutely no reason why I was blocked, which leads me to believe I won't be receiving my money back, nor will I be hearing from Sickboy again.


PROOF:
Agreement: the first one: http://i.imgur.com/wm4eA49.png (6/27) & the second: http://i.imgur.com/Do0MtgY.png (9/8)
Proof of payment: http://i.imgur.com/iFHOzfs.png & http://i.imgur.com/6NMJOaI.png
Proof of him agreeing to finish the overdue art on 9/8: http://i.imgur.com/4k3hUdo.png (he did not finish them that night)
Evidence of him cursing at me: http://pastebin.com/qpc2EEv4
Due to him accusing me of editing this pastebin, I am posting a screenshot of how it appears in my logs: http://i.imgur.com/7NK29Jv.png - I am sorry that it's formatted in a block of text. My logs apparently bugged out and I don't want to edit it to prove the point that they weren't touched.

EXPLAIN: I’ve done everything I could to ask for my money back. Despite his promises to do so (as seen in his responses on my forum thread) he is now lying to others saying he doesn’t owe me any money http://comments.deviantart.com/1/449033043/3447744659

I’ve tried everything. I don’t know what else to do. I was scammed out of a lot of money. So much money that I’m not comfortable even saying it. That is why I’ve blacked it out. It’s embarrassing.

Another thing I’d like to advise to potential buyers is that this person has a Terms of Service that isn’t very airtight and very contradictory. This has led me to the realization that the art he did do I will need to replace. So on top of the money I was scammed out of, I will also need to replace all the art he actually did to. I came to this realization based on his terms: http://sickboyart.co.nf/tos.php I did not have these terms laid out in front of me when I was commissioning the seller. I don’t feel comfortable that I’m required to credit him to use the art he did for me because it may lead to others commissioning him and rendering a similar experience. http://i.imgur.com/sRPGvEc.png To me, his terms are also very confusing and legally unfriendly. All efforts to sign over his work to me have went ignored.

Edit: Please read: The problem with the Artist's TOS is NOT solely the credit but instead the legal loopholes and problems that may be faced with the rights of the work and refund policy. I was advised to get the work replaced because of the confusing terms. I do not have a problem with crediting artists so long my order is completed. The reason why the TOS is being mentioned is so that people are aware of all his terms before ordering. I was not

I have personally made the decision to get the art he did do replaced because I disagree with these terms. Again I provide them here so potential consumers are aware. These terms didn't exist when I made my order.
Before commenting, please read our Community Rules.
Do not go after persons posted about here, by leaving comments on their art pages.
If you have been posted about, please read I've Been Posted on Artists_Beware, Now What?

Comments

( 134 comments — Leave a comment )
starcharmer
May. 26th, 2014 10:31 pm (UTC)
You don't feel comfortable crediting him for the work he did for you because...? That's a REALLY standard rule for many artists. I don't think it's unreasonable that you put a "contributing artists" section on your site with a list of all the artists who worked on things for you and links to their galleries.
teekchan
May. 26th, 2014 10:35 pm (UTC)
This.

Im pretty sure most artists require credit. I know I do. Refusal to credit will have the artwork removed by mods, of DMCAed. I have actually had to do this for one client who outright refused to credit me.

It's a standard when buying commissions.
(no subject) - tylociraptor - May. 26th, 2014 10:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - punishmentss - May. 26th, 2014 10:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tylociraptor - May. 26th, 2014 10:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - teekchan - May. 26th, 2014 11:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - teekchan - May. 27th, 2014 01:12 am (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - starcharmer - May. 27th, 2014 12:26 am (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - vellacraptor - May. 28th, 2014 12:02 am (UTC) - Expand
spagglethat
May. 26th, 2014 10:54 pm (UTC)
Yeah, if I knew you weren't going to credit me when I require it, I wouldn't want to continue work with you either... Not excusing the lack of a refund or anything, but still. I don't think I know of one artist that doesn't require credit.

Even if Sickboy didn't complete the commission, if you are going to use what he did give you, then you need to credit him.
punishmentss
May. 26th, 2014 11:00 pm (UTC)
Please read the previous comments on this article for more information.

The refusal of credit came after the problems. Credit was to be given after the order was completed and horrorprince consented to this arrangement. This was not a possible reason for lack of refund or incomplete order. Before I was blocked I had every intention of crediting him for his work. That was never an issue before the problems happened.

Also please keep in mind that I do not plan to use his work. Despite the disrespect to my terms, I'm still respectful of his own and do not wish to escalate this issue more.

Edited at 2014-05-26 11:02 pm (UTC)
Tobasco Cat
May. 27th, 2014 12:47 am (UTC)
you are not COMFORTABLE crediting him? apparently you do not understand how the legal system works dear. no matter how much work was done, if his hand dragged that pen across any surface it is immediately his and by law HAS to be credited to him.

and of course he would ignore you trying to force him to sign over his work. i would too after the way you had treated him.


i will never have pity for someone like you.
punishmentss
May. 27th, 2014 12:53 am (UTC)
Excuse me, how did I treat him badly? I didn't have a problem with crediting him until recently.

And again his work is being replaced because I am respecting his terms to be credited.

ALL the artists who are working for me now, completing the orders I've put in, are being credited for their time. I fully believe in crediting but I don't in this case because of the issues that came about towards the end.

Edited at 2014-05-27 12:54 am (UTC)
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - May. 27th, 2014 12:57 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - dragonleas - May. 27th, 2014 12:58 am (UTC) - Expand
kayla_la
May. 27th, 2014 01:05 am (UTC)
On topic of the actual post, this is a very valid beware. It sounds like he's made a habit of this sort of thing, as well. I don't know how he can think it's okay to just keep your money like that, much less lying to people that he doesn't owe you.

Personally I wouldn't want to advertise for him after all that, either, and I understand where you're coming from. Not using it at all is definitely the best choice. Good luck with your next artist, I'm sure it'll be a better experience!
punishmentss
May. 27th, 2014 01:10 am (UTC)
Thank you so much.

I've hired a number of artists after this that have all been a pleasure. I would recommend them to anyone, they are all complete sweethearts and I've already recommended them to friends and my co-workers!

I certainly don't mind passing along their names as a recommendation! And they will absolutely all be credited for their hard work.
(no subject) - teekchan - May. 27th, 2014 01:13 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - punishmentss - May. 27th, 2014 01:15 am (UTC) - Expand
Tobasco Cat
May. 27th, 2014 01:24 am (UTC)
freeze your comment so i cant reply?

you harassed him. and you continue to do so publicly, on multiple threads. if it was a private matter it was a PRIVATE MATTER.
and its a matter of legal ownership, not that 'oh i dont want to credit him now' bull.

your disrespectful. your ignorant and arrogant to boot.
punishmentss
May. 27th, 2014 01:29 am (UTC)
I never harassed him.

I was blocked after this conversation: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/wu51van5vxyyisq/OnPaste.20140521-202610.png

I did not harass him.

When I saw I was blocked, I created a warning thread on the community where I discovered him.

http://www.virtualpetlist.com/threads/scammed-by-sickboy-horrorprince-deviantart-com.20402/

He randomly started ignoring me a month after he said he would get back to me after he finished more commissions.

Please provide evidence I'm harassing this individual.

I may have been inexperienced but I've learned and I am learning. Mostly the issue here is I trusted the wrong individual.

Edited at 2014-05-27 01:32 am (UTC)
MOD COMMENT - kayla_la - May. 27th, 2014 01:33 am (UTC) - Expand
whorrorprince
May. 27th, 2014 07:21 am (UTC)
PT. 1

Reading all of this just makes me very disappointed in you. We were extremely close friends, we talked every day, and you and I both would be lying if anyone was to say this all happened due to personal feelings to end the friendship. So don't say its "strictly business".

You specifically told me I could work on art for you at anytime and there was no rush with it. Your "game" has been in the works for years and is no where near finished and you had a lot of items you wanted me to finish that took time. So please do not say "I've been waiting desperately for months for my art!" when it was fine up until you didn't want to be friends with me. You also fail to mention that I worked for you for free up until the end of it as well. I was ready/willing to do free items for your other game, on top of all the other free art I gave you etc.

Why is it that the money I supposedly "owe" you changes amounts every time I see you mention it. First it was around 36, than around 50, then 57, 60, than finally you don't even want to mention the amount here even though you didn't have a hard time telling everyone else. Remember when you also said I owed you $130 as well for a birthday present and demanded I worked that off as well (obviously not anymore now that you sold it ). http://i.imgur.com/Epy2diw.png

I finished your art, but after telling me "Oh I can't use any of this art now!" you demanded a refund and threatened to make a post amount how I "stole" from you. I was willing to work with you and even told you to sell most/all of it (it'd be fine) because I felt extremely bad that our friendship ended but you went ahead and told everyone I ripped you off anyway. For a person who quote "Wants this to end as soon as possible because it's painful" you fail to mention you've been stalking me for over 6 months on every site I'm on.

I blocked you from everything but the site you hired me on because you proceeded to message me every single day to bitch at me. You even got a mutual friend to puppet to see if you could use my art without credit. I would never of agreed for you not to use my art without credit and I told you this, and also told you I would take if back if you would do this. Why you find this ridiculous is beyond me, you don't have to link to me and you can tell everyone who asks about it not to commission me, I just want credit.

punishmentss
May. 27th, 2014 07:43 am (UTC)
"Reading all of this just makes me very disappointed in you. We were extremely close friends, we talked every day, and you and I both would be lying if anyone was to say this all happened due to personal feelings to end the friendship. So don't say its "strictly business". "

You asked me to keep it strictly business right here:
http://www.virtualpetlist.com/threads/scammed-by-sickboy-horrorprince-deviantart-com.20402/#post-211489

I never said anything like what you're claiming. Absolutely feel free to provide your own evidence. You know I put in a lot of effort to resolving this as smoothly and as amiable as possible. Feel free to provide evidence that I directly and personally haven't.


"You specifically told me I could work on art for you at anytime and there was no rush with it. Your "game" has been in the works for years and is no where near finished and you had a lot of items you wanted me to finish that took time. So please do not say "I've been waiting desperately for months for my art!" when it was fine up until you didn't want to be friends with me. You also fail to mention that I worked for you for free up until the end of it as well. I was ready/willing to do free items for your other game, on top of all the other free art I gave you etc."
I asked you for the work to be done in JULY. It's right in the note of the payment. I DID allow the deadline to be extended but throughout the Fall I told you I wanted the work done. Right in the conversation on 9/8 you agree to finish it that night: right here

The free art you offered to do has nothing to do with this and you assured me I never had to pay for any of that. I fully respected and abided whatever you asked along the way and I told you I'd pay if you wanted it. I never knew you had a problem with that until now. It would have been nice for you to clearly have told me that beforehand.

And also you never did items for any other game. You told me you didn't feel comfortable matching the style which I was completely okay with!

"Why is it that the money I supposedly "owe" you changes amounts every time I see you mention it. First it was around 36, than around 50, then 57, 60, than finally you don't even want to mention the amount here even though you didn't have a hard time telling everyone else. Remember when you also said I owed you $130 as well for a birthday present and demanded I worked that off as well (obviously not anymore now that you sold it ). http://i.imgur.com/Epy2diw.png"
Skillfully twisting ONE part of a conversation won't get you out of your responsibility to refund me the money you owe me. No, I never told you that you had to pay me $130. I've always told you one amount and it's never changed.

http://i.imgur.com/vr2Y9bc.png there's the full message. Right in the next line I say he doesn't have to pay that off. I have no idea what relevance that even is to this conversation. By the way that message was sent the first week of January. It was a month later I approached you asking for a refund.

The reason why I said I need the art replaced at that time was because I couldn't find someone to match your art style. That since changed. Curiously you agreed to refund me. Multiple times. I don't understand.


Edited at 2014-05-27 10:01 am (UTC)
(no subject) - punishmentss - May. 27th, 2014 07:44 am (UTC) - Expand
MOD COMMENT - kayla_la - May. 27th, 2014 05:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: MOD COMMENT - punishmentss - May. 27th, 2014 06:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: MOD COMMENT - kayla_la - May. 27th, 2014 06:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: MOD COMMENT - punishmentss - May. 27th, 2014 06:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
whorrorprince
May. 27th, 2014 07:22 am (UTC)
PT. 2

You fail to mention you have friends that harassed me on dA on unrelated art about how I "owe" you. You fail to mentions that I lost my moderator job on the forum we were both on at the SAME exact time you decided to stop being my friend and demand a refund ( http://i.imgur.com/6LDnFsp.png ). You fail to mention how I shared a TO-DO list with other people and you kept tacking items on way after I was finished with what I owed you. You fail to mention you didn't ask for a refund straight up and demanded that I finish everything else on the list ( http://i.imgur.com/gidevgc.png ) even though you told me you were going to sell it anyway. You fail to mention I was willing to work with you 100% up until you demanded to have your money back. You fail to mention you got your boyfriend to make an account and try to shame me publicly on my profile ( http://i.imgur.com/CphhnQf.png ). You fail to mention how I have unrelated friends messaging me telling me that you noted them about this to try to pit them against me ( http://i.imgur.com/icjIBBK.png ). You fail to mention you listed my OLD TOS and proceeded to poke fun of the spelling mistakes and how "ridiculous" my request was to credit me publicly knowing full well I'm dyslexic and I asked you to credit my art ( http://i.imgur.com/KW9nPfN.png ). You fail to mention you got a HANDFUL of artists to work for you for free and replace my art and more because you told them you got scammed. You fail to mention how you yelled and threatened me when I accepted or thought about doing art for other people that you didn't like ( I am a FREE LANCE artist might I add ).

The pastebin (fully able to change anything you want with what we said might I add) says I "cursed" at you even though I swore about stuff everyday. You fail to mention all the things you said to ME.

If I would of known being your friend was just you trying to get free art out of me and be your own "personal" artist I would of never even thought about continuing this offer of friendship and listened to my other friends about you. This situation is mostly personal drama that you decided to involve everyone and their mother in then complain how you're just the victim that wants their money back and never asked for this.

Even if I did owe you money, seeing the poor, crazy behavior that you did in return I don't think anyone would blame me for trying to get as far away from you as I can. I make sure I refund all of the people that commission me and are willing to work with, you've seen this first hand. This is a giant, extremely personal, drawn out situation that is nearing almost a year where you've been stalking me. Anyone here can see this is isn't a "professional" exchange seeing as we were very close friends.

I have ignored your stalking, messages to other people as well as my friends, I've deleted you off of everything, changed my art tumblr url, got rid of and blocked even MUTUAL friends of ours and you still continue to do this. I have never responded to anything you've ever said to me or any of my friends after you got hostile, I am not a petty person but this is way too much for me. Stop asking me if you can use ANY of my art without credit because the answer still remains no, this goes double for all the art I did for you before all these items. Stop trying to involve my friends and other people in this bad blood you have with me. I refuse to work with you anymore and would like if you would finally, please leave me alone.
kayla_la
May. 27th, 2014 07:29 am (UTC)
That's a lot of text, and I'm a little unsure of something. Please answer me simply: Are you basically stating you don't intend to refund the OP for the work that wasn't completed?
(no subject) - spagglethat - May. 27th, 2014 07:36 am (UTC) - Expand
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pepper_head
May. 27th, 2014 05:33 pm (UTC)
Misunderstanding
Hello! I feel as though a lot of commenters here who aren't in the petsite industry (which is what sickboy was commissioned for) may be misunderstanding some crucial points.

1. Gabby isn't looking for Free Art!
I am one of the volunteer artists who is completing sickboy's unfinished items. I never even posted in the thread where the issue was first made public. I pmed to help because I enjoy volunteering my work as it helps me improve (I was already volunteering for her anyway), and two because I can understand the pain of losing money, be it $5 or $50. Even if the situation was resolved, I wanted to help out. NUMEROUS TIMES she has offered payment but I REFUSED MONEY.Throughout all of my experiences with Gabby, as a buyer and a seller, she was always VERY FAIR AND PATIENT, and quick to uphold her end of the bargain.

2. Industry differences vs common commission - credit is rarely given because hardly anybody requires it
In the petsite industry, many art pieces are drawn and sold... and it's sort of common to not give credit. Many artists here don't care, like me. Think Neopets,there are tons of pets and items and images everywhere,owned by the company. It would be very messy and kinda pointless to credit all of the artists for everything as they come and go..nobody would even bother to look through that list anyway.

BUT with that being said, in this industry, credit is wanted, its said BEFORE selling work/services. And NO buyer that I've had a problem crediting people if wanted. In this situation, sickboy had tos, but there was a lack of communication about them and it was updated randomly. Gabby didn't want his work on her site after this fuss AND she was NOT going to use the few items that he actually did! No use = no credit

When things worsened, she wanted no remembrances of this and just wanted her money back. In his tos he said he could take back items at any point that he wanted to, and thats a red flag for any site too.

THE REAL PROBLEM HERE is that sickboy did NOT complete his commission for a long time, continued to accept other commissions (and do the same to others!), used the money, and will not refund. Even after saying he'd do it that night many times, he never did. No excuse to scam.

3. Crediting wasn't even an issue to begin with! Its a minor detail that is being used out of context and as a scapegoat
I remember Gabby sending PMs to everyone she ever commissioned asking for us to agree that it was for her site and we wouldn't resell it basically. We could still post it on portfolio sites etc. Fair and agreeable terms and she was willing to work with artists so that everyone could be happy. Ironically this was to help keep tabs on who drew what and to create a fair agreement. I feel that sickboy is trying to redirect the attention with the crediting 'issue'.

4. Gabby didn't send people to harass him on dA.
She posted a thread (which she didnt want to do at first) http://tinyurl.com/mtbtqgd
You can see by some of the comments that a lot of people were shocked. Sickboy was a moderator in this community, he had generally positive experiences with everyone. We are a small and tight community, and this was shocking. People messaged sickboy AS FRIENDS because this was hard to believe and we wanted to think that maybe there was another reason, especially since it was kept private for so long and there were no warnings. I didn't message him, but I was very shocked that this had happened, even though I knew Gabby had no reason to lie. EVEN THOUGH HE SAID HE WELCOMED QUESTIONS AND WOULD SEND ANYONE HIS PROOF, he quickly shot anyone away/ignored them.

5. Its not Gabby's fault that sickboy no longer has his position as moderator BECAUSE
this had happened. To be a moderator, you have to be very active in the community and sickboy couldn't keep up (a lot is expected to be fair). Also, HE removed himself from it before the thread was posted. I remember he stopped posting altogether and removed his avatar.

Gabby did not want to post to Artists Beware before. After seeing sickboy scam other people and still refuse to refund her or complete the items like he said he'd do repeatedly even publicly, along with encouragement from others, that she wrote this to warn others who may consider commissioning him.
sableantelope
May. 28th, 2014 12:53 am (UTC)
Just one contention with what you've said:

BUT with that being said, in this industry, credit is wanted, its said BEFORE selling work/services. And NO buyer that I've had a problem crediting people if wanted. In this situation, sickboy had tos, but there was a lack of communication about them and it was updated randomly. Gabby didn't want his work on her site after this fuss AND she was NOT going to use the few items that he actually did! No use = no credit

and

Crediting wasn't even an issue to begin with! Its a minor detail that is being used out of context and as a scapegoat

Contract law doesn't care what the community/industry usually does.Your community can usually do what ever but the requirement for the buyer to be diligent is always there. Period. That means reading the terms you are agreeing to, which in this case included crediting all art.


Look, I get this person is you friend and you want to come in here and vouche for their character, but some tenets of business transcend whether either party is nice or not, or what your 'industry' "usually" does or not. The fact is that willful ignorance of terms is no defense to them is one of those tenets. It's law.

It's something mentioned in the OP's main complaint and so it's something that's been addressed. It's not being harped on for no reason. It's being discussed because it's something that it seemed the OP had mistaken beliefs about: ie that it was an unreasonable or "legally unfriendly" term in the artist's TOS.

The fact that this screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/sRPGvEc.png was posted by OP with the term about credit circled is proof that OP does not understand the issue with credit.
It's been thoroughly explained here so hopefully OP does understand that there was nothing wrong legally with the TOS.

And the fact she says the TOS has issues with contridiction and legality is a serious accusation! It's no wonder it's being discussed.

Personally I don't see anything even remotely legally wrong with the TOS, the OP says a lawyer reviewed it for her and I assume they said the same thing. The no refund if the buyer cancels is harsh,and probably could be fought if the amount was worth it- but the one who breaches a contract is the one who takes the loss.
To me t the TOS seems every generous towards the buyer in terms of use. They allow minor edits and also the buyer to turn the digital work into printed work.
They also allow their work used on commercial sites with only the requirement of credit- not an additional cost or the buyer to buy the rights(usually at least triple the cost without rights). That's a pretty awesome deal. Not too many artists would do that because it's selling themselves short.

So it might have seemed to you reading this that too big a deal was made over the TOS and crediting issue, but because of the severity of the claims OP made about the TOS, yeah that's valid discussion.
You coming in here and trying to minimise the issue or say it's being used as a 'scapegoat'(a scapegoat for what exactly??)
isn't helping your friend.
Their trying to make the fact they have to have the art redone because they wont credit and so can't use it a damage or something that we should feel bad for them about is really all on the OP. It doesn't make them more entitled to their refund or that the artist did anything more wrong because of that. It kind of irks me that it is in the complaint.
If their complaint is valid it doesn't need to be padded out.

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klaora
May. 27th, 2014 06:28 pm (UTC)
As a long time lurker of both communities, I feel like there's a little bit of cultural differences here that are making this situation a little bit harder to understand.

For most pet sites, MOST art commissioned in this instance is considered "work for hire" by default.
Artists are allowed to post the images in their own galleries and portfolio, but the art typically belongs to the site in question.
Also, pet site artists often sell their work for pennies in comparison to other freelancers. The two dollar item usually includes the right to redistribute due to the nature of the work. Recolors and edits of the item is common, and there is usually a small extra fee, to obtain the .psd or to have the artist do it for you.

It's also not uncommon to purchase items in large batches. The artist may have "finished" several items, but that doesn't mean that the work he has been hired for is done.

Anyway, not sure if all of this information is necessarily relevant, but the point is that pet sites play by a different set of rules. The not wanting to post credit and rights distribution may seem foreign to you, but that's usually how it works and is a fairly well understood unwritten rule. x3 It does vary from site to site, however.
sableantelope
May. 28th, 2014 12:58 am (UTC)
Unwritten rules don't override the law however. You're the second person saying 'well this is how the community works...', and frankly that doesn't matter. No, they don't play by different rules unless they draw up very specific contracts allow the parties to do so. The fact that X, Y, Z did their deal that way doesn't matter. There no such thing as assuming a transfer of rights/work for hire.

The OP, Gabby, did not do their due diligence as a buyer by not reading the (actually pretty darn generous rights wise to the buyer) TOS of the seller. The OP was wrong to assume.
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radcatastrophe
May. 28th, 2014 12:25 am (UTC)
People keep saying his ToS is in order yes you seem to be overlooking this bit:
"★ Cancelling commissions may occur only if there is a emergency/something happens. If it's you and not me, you might not receive a refund and will probably be blacklisted."

Doesn't matter if the commissioner is being mean, rude, etc they paid you to do something and you can't keep the money unless you completed your end of the deal. Other than that this is the only other issue thats up:
"★ I can and will draw copyrighted trademarks/characters. If sold, I'm not held responsable. " we're not really talking about their ToS but I thought I'd point those out.
sableantelope
May. 28th, 2014 06:17 am (UTC)
Something I find a bit weird on all AB entries, is that you can't unilaterally cancel a contract with out taking some loss.
So I always side eye the way partial refunds are decided on.
Tried to find legal fiction specifically on that but it's tough to find.

Anyways in this case with the further proof the artist posted and added now(the refund agreement discussion) plus the deadline proof, they are entitled to money back, no question.


Well I'm not saying the TOS is perfect, not at all, but the TOS should be the jumping off point for an actual contract not the whole of the contract.
Which is why I kind of saw the spirit of his two clause he has on cancelling being: I cancel you get a refund, you cancel you take a loss.
Those things would then be clarified further in the contract, probably with something like a 20% non refundable deposit if the buyer cancels, etc. Then if the buyer agrees that's their loss if they decided part way they want to cancel.
If he flakes out and doesn't finish the work in a timely matter(which, after, much digging through custom commission cases results online I discovered is actually about 14 months for custom costume goods, 8-10 months for a logo- these are the closest I could find to a fursuit and digital furry commission), he takes the loss and refunds.

My issue with the TOS is actually the the way the OP was trying to use the rights issue as the reason the contract was not legally friendly(like the circled screenshot) because or a wrong assumption on their part and consistent bad practice in their community.

That ballooned out like crazy to this big discussion. I never meant to get into the refund issue until I noticed the refund issue
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sableantelope
May. 28th, 2014 01:00 am (UTC)
Wow, it's clear this is a pretty loaded deal gone bad because it's split a community into taking sides; and people are rushing here to vouche for the OP. That often doesn't do the OP any favours. Whether it does here or not is to be seen.

There's no excuse for money being taken for art and art not being delievered on time, they would absolutely be owed their refund for the uncompleted portion. However if the OP cancelled the remaining art once they realised they would have to credit then that affects things big time. I'm not sure because the facts are really are cluttered up with irreverent things like the loss of the moderator position and I can't even come up with whether their actually was a deadline or not.

Or even what the new deadlines were.

The OP has this linked: http://i.imgur.com/4k3hUdo.png with the comment that they were not finished that night
I don't see any agreement for the art being complete that night so don't understand why OP has " (he did not finish them that night)" by that comment.

I also don't see any screenshot proof of: "We originally agreed that he would complete the art, but circumstances changed, I requested that I be refunded, to which he agreed."

I'm very curious to see proof of that because that would mean that the OP did infact cancel, and that artist went against their TOS in agreeing to refund .I can't find the sceenshot showing the refund agreement? Only one on DA where OP pops up in a conversation between the seller and another person(not particularly professional behaviour) to say that the seller owes them money and the seller denying it.
vellacraptor
May. 28th, 2014 01:28 am (UTC)
I'm not sure if there are other sources, but on the thread in VPL sickboy does in fact say he was going to refund the OP, just the OP publicly posting the claims "made it difficult," so they did admit to owing the funds if that helps. :D
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sableantelope
May. 28th, 2014 06:24 am (UTC)
Okay, I just wanted to add this here since I think it might be helpful:

https://www.docracy.com/0_gfe2tafc2/custom-design-and-development-contract

That's a custom design/art contract with clauses specifically about rights transfers which is set up as the general contract and then schedual A for description of what`s being bought and schedual B as . I think it's a great stepping off point for anyone who wants to do a contract that transfers rights. So it includes transfer of rights, when payment is due(this has at the delivery of final art, but you could break that up in schd. B to 50 and 50), it also lets you define a breach that disolves the deal and the time to rememdy the breach: ie a partial refund within x amount of day)
It also has a severability clause- which lets the remained of the contract stand if some is ruled unenforcable which is great since digital art commissions are still in terms of the law new things.

(this is for the US(Texas) BTW, but it`s a good start to modify for your own needs)
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