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I don't think this is covered anywhere, but I have a slight problem/question about when a commissioner reuploads the art on their page. I'm fine with people reuploading, and I provide a resized file for them to use, the same one I use for submitting files to my FA. I also, of course, provide the full size picture. Recently, I finished a picture, and sent off the files. I found out that the commissioner had reuploaded the picture -- which is fine, I skim the reuploads for comments and to make sure I've been referenced in the description somewhere.

Usually, commissioners always use the presized version for their upload, but this particular one did not. I tried asking them politely to use the file I've provided them instead of the original file (FA resized it anyway, but it's still larger than I had intended, and the file that I had sent them). They asked why, I tried to give an explanation, they outright disagreed/refused. I'm trying to be polite, but he wasn't the nicest person throughout the commission process either.

My question here is, shouldn't a commissioner respect the artist's wishes when reuploading a commissioned picture to their own page? I set the size at 800*600 because I felt it was a nice, easy to view size for most screens/devices. His reasoning is that he has a 1080p screen, why should he care about the other people out there with smaller screens/what's the point of having the large file (which is 7200*5400) if he can't share it? It was a YCH auction piece, he's not the only person in the image, and I've tried to tell him that I provide the larger image so that people can use it as a desktop, share personally among friends, print, etc., do whatever privately with, as long as it doesn't provide them profit. I don't know what to do, and I'm just hoping for some advice about reuploading content. What's worked for other people? Am I wrong to say that he needs to use the file I've provided? I've never had this issue before... Oh, and I don't have a ToS right now, it's in progress of being written, but I can't exactly stop taking commissions just cause I don't have one yet ;_; I hadn't had the urge to work on it faster because most people are... quite decent people/commissioners o.o

I have screencaps of the conversation, but I don't want to necessarily use those unless I make an actual beware of the commissioner (his attitude wasn't very polite, but not exceptionally rude. There was no insulting, just nothing... pleasant.)

Thanks in advance!

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( 95 comments — Leave a comment )
sigilgoat
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:01 am (UTC)
If it's not in a TOS or document that he agreed to, you're kind of SOL in this situation. It is rude of him to upload the larger one, especially after he asked, but I'm not 100% sure if that's worthy of a beware, unless he was particularly offensive.

In the future you always want to have a document that customers read that has that info in it, so if they do break your TOS, you have grounds for a beware or other form of rebuttal.
mazz
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:13 am (UTC)
I agree with this.
I'd suggest putting it in your TOS now for future commissions.
(no subject) - zaulankris - Feb. 9th, 2013 02:31 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:07 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - zaulankris - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:33 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:38 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - zaulankris - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:46 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nambroth - Feb. 9th, 2013 04:40 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:41 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - zaulankris - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:37 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - zaulankris - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:39 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:42 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - thaily - Feb. 9th, 2013 09:05 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - animecat - Feb. 9th, 2013 02:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:04 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - animecat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:14 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nambroth - Feb. 9th, 2013 04:43 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:09 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:31 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:39 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:44 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:46 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kerstin_orion - Feb. 9th, 2013 04:58 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:10 am (UTC) - Expand
rimpala
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:06 am (UTC)
I usually just let the commissioner do what they want with their commission myself as I usually display the finished product in my own gallery anyways unless otherwise requested. Everything in reason of course, I fortunately never ran across any clients that claimed they drew the artwork.

Edited at 2013-02-09 02:07 am (UTC)
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:32 am (UTC)
I've never had anyone claim they've created the work either, but it's more of a selfish thing, I guess, to want to be linked back to... it helps get me seen by more people which could mean more potential commissioners, right? :)
(no subject) - rimpala - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:49 am (UTC) - Expand
nambroth
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:28 am (UTC)
I always explain to my customers that the watermarked and smaller res file is what they may upload, and it is to protect us both, as smaller resolution files are LESS likely to be stolen. This is the truth-- I find my work on eBay without permission way too often. I find that most clients dislike the idea of the art they paid for being sold on mass produced junk about as much as I do.

That said, unless I am completely misunderstanding the situation, you are within your legal right to request that the client remove the large resolution file-- unless you signed over rights to them via contract, you are the copyright holder on the artwork you created, and unauthorized electronic redistribution is still unauthorized electronic redistribution even if they were a client. Would it be rude? I guess it depends on if you gave the client 'instructions' on how you expected them to use the image when you sent them.
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:21 am (UTC)
This brings up a very good point, I was thinking about it before; how the smaller file is harder to steal etc.. No contract was signed, it was an auction pose picture thing, it was my first ever and I was trying out the waters... There was another commissioner separate from him involved in this particular piece. The other person paid more, if either of them have more right to the image it'd be the one who paid more I'd think o.o

Thanks for the advice :)
(no subject) - nambroth - Feb. 9th, 2013 04:45 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:13 am (UTC) - Expand
brownspotz
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:30 am (UTC)
In the future maybe not send them the larger file? Dunno if that would help or not.
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:22 am (UTC)
I feel it's an obligation to send the completed full size file to commissioners, afterall, they paid for the image to be made, it should be up to them to use on their own how they will. I've not had problems ever til now =\
animecat
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:45 am (UTC)
Unless you sold the rights away with the commission, you have every right legally to dictate what gets posted and where, because that falls under copyright laws. If the client refuses to deal with you, you can take it up with the gallery site's moderators (FA actually has it in the AUP how they side with the artist every time) and they can remove the image. If the person keeps uploading it against your wishes, they're subject to a suspension from the site.
tartii
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:00 am (UTC)
You have every right to dictate on what file you want uploaded. I stress to my commissioners to only upload the watermarked image provide to prevent theft. If he is refusing this (its such an easy fix...don't know why he's throwing a fit) make it clear to him that, if he will not comply, you will not do business again with him in the future. Or, take it to the mods and have them forcefully remove it.
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:35 am (UTC)
I had already decided that based on the less than favourable attitude presented by him through edits in the process, I wouldn't be taking new commissions from him... however, I appreciate the advice for talking to mods on FA :) thank you.
growly
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:22 am (UTC)
With FA, you have to have the artist's permission to upload a work- you did not give permission for the customer to upload that file, so I should think all you have to do is contact a mod to have it removed.
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 9th, 2013 03:33 am (UTC)
After reading the general consensus here, I believe I'll give the guy a warning if he's not changed it yet, and then if he's not changed it after... idk, 24 hours? I'll contact a mod. Thanks for the advice :)
(no subject) - rimpala - Feb. 9th, 2013 03:50 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fenris_lorsrai - Feb. 9th, 2013 04:10 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:20 am (UTC) - Expand
lironess
Feb. 9th, 2013 05:01 am (UTC)
Last time I looked up the legal statutes which I admit was some time ago the commissioner has total ownership of the property and although there may be "rules" at FA from a legal standpoint you have no rights to the property once it is bought and changes hands.

This does not apply to selling copies of your work that was not commissioned...but commissioned work does become their property even if it was something that you made to their specifications.
neolucky
Feb. 9th, 2013 05:05 am (UTC)
Ah. No. I believe that is only for physical products. The commissioner retains NO RIGHTS to the image beyond the intellecual property of the design it's been derrived from.

In digital art, the artist retains -all rights- and -all distribution-.
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 9th, 2013 05:07 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - neolucky - Feb. 9th, 2013 05:09 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lironess - Feb. 9th, 2013 05:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - oceandezignz - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - neolucky - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:06 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:17 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sbneko - Feb. 9th, 2013 07:08 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - neolucky - Feb. 9th, 2013 08:14 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nambroth - Feb. 9th, 2013 07:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
mrst4nkr
Feb. 9th, 2013 05:23 am (UTC)
I actually don't find this to be that big of a deal (well, for me! But if it is for you, then it is for you.)
With commissions, I post them at a certain size, and send the full size (if I have a larger piece) to the commissioner. I let them decide which one they want to upload. I think it's nice to give them the large file if they want to enjoy it for themselves or share it with others.

But, that's just me. As long as I receive credit, I don't really mind. I think it's flattering that they want to show off all the details of the piece of work they got from you. They clearly don't want to enjoy it just to themselves.

Is the larger version without a signature or a watermark?




Edited at 2013-02-09 05:27 am (UTC)
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 9th, 2013 06:20 am (UTC)
The larger version has the signature and watermark; my main reason for wanting the file I provided to be used is that I have control over what sizes of my "art" is available on the internet. This is comprised of desire to keep redistribution/theft low, and as a web design background person, to help optimise viewership on the multitude of devices available these days.

It's a particularity, but given his attitude towards the simple request, I'm going to stand by my right to it.
(no subject) - zaulankris - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:29 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mrst4nkr - Feb. 9th, 2013 06:54 am (UTC) - Expand
thaily
Feb. 9th, 2013 09:12 am (UTC)
This is why I stopped automatically giving customers hi-rez files, and definitely never any files without my signature on it. Aside the fact I don't want hi-rez files floating about the internet, a lot of people will upload the hi-rez to FA instead of the internet-sized one and then FA scales it down and IT LOOKS HIDEOUS! Just full of particles and noise, it just looks bad and reflects badly on me.

The moment people ask for a hi-rez files (and surprisingly few do, surprisingly few have a use for it) it opens a dialogue in which I can ask them not to repost the hi-rez, get them to agree not to before I send it and tell them why not; why would you want to give any third party access to print quality files of your character's drawing? It just opens you up for abuse, like having people print it off and sell it.

In freelance business, which this is, any rights not negotiated beforehand default to the artist. You can DMCA to have the hi-rez images and you should consider it.

Is there any way we could get you to share this guy's name with us so we can avoid him?
oceandezignz
Feb. 9th, 2013 04:49 pm (UTC)
OP can send it to you privately if they wish to, but as this is an advice post and not a beware, the client cannot be publicly outed.
(no subject) - tealmoonxiv - Feb. 9th, 2013 05:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - pekoeko - Feb. 10th, 2013 01:22 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 10th, 2013 03:58 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - itsamellama - Feb. 10th, 2013 07:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 10th, 2013 04:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - itsamellama - Feb. 11th, 2013 12:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 11th, 2013 04:27 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mortymaxwell - Feb. 11th, 2013 12:22 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - itsamellama - Feb. 11th, 2013 06:46 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mortymaxwell - Feb. 11th, 2013 11:23 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - itsamellama - Feb. 11th, 2013 01:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
wolf_goat
Feb. 9th, 2013 02:55 pm (UTC)
I've had this issue before with a commissioner who was definitely less than pleasant to deal with and less than co-operative. The solution (after asking him to remove it and getting told where to go) was just to contact site mods and have them remove it, and calmly, politely explain to him why while reassuring him he still has every right to upload the approved upload-size version.

My commissioner got very pissy and unreasonable about it, but he was a pissy and unreasonable customer from start to finish so the idea of him not returning for more work wasn't a big concern.
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 10th, 2013 03:56 am (UTC)
He's changed it now, but only after I noted him with a warning of 24 hours before contacting the mods.
kayfox
Feb. 9th, 2013 07:05 pm (UTC)
I think the best solution in this case is to create an appropriately labeled and watermarked version for an appropriate resolution. It shouldn't take that much time and it will make everyone happy.

I don't think it would be a good idea to tell a commissioner they cant display something they paid you for, even if you hold the copyright. I will just lead to people being wary to comission you in the future, I know I have stopped commissioning a few artists because of what they do with commissions (one in particular, makes prints and also publishes them as a compilation).
kayla_la
Feb. 10th, 2013 01:13 am (UTC)
It sounds like they did exactly that, it's just that the commissioner refused to use the resized version and insisted on uploading the fully sized version. The OP just wants them to upload the smaller version instead, they aren't telling them they can't upload it at all.
(no subject) - Draekaar Draconigenae - Feb. 10th, 2013 03:55 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kayfox - Feb. 10th, 2013 06:50 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tealmoonxiv - Feb. 10th, 2013 07:45 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kayfox - Feb. 10th, 2013 07:57 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Feb. 10th, 2013 03:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - neolucky - Feb. 10th, 2013 05:29 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kayfox - Feb. 10th, 2013 06:51 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - neolucky - Feb. 10th, 2013 11:33 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kayfox - Feb. 10th, 2013 07:42 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 10th, 2013 07:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
koohiimonsutaa
Feb. 10th, 2013 08:32 am (UTC)
It may not be in your TOS, but I believe its against FA's rules to upload gigantic pictures that will take up server bandwidth.
Draekaar Draconigenae
Feb. 10th, 2013 04:37 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that too. I think FA made it so that images resize to 1200 or so, but the image really doesn't need to be larger than 800*600 on screens.

I've seen some images that are actually giant, and you need to break the size limitations to have it visible. Of course, I also see that people who do that are smart and try to optimise the size a lot before uploading.
800x600 is AWFULLY small these days. - wolfwings - Feb. 17th, 2013 07:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Feb. 10th, 2013 07:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lem0ntrees - Feb. 10th, 2013 08:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
nxcritter
Feb. 15th, 2013 12:55 pm (UTC)
I find It kinda flattering. These people/person liked your work to where they wanted to post it in all it's glory! I love that I can understand that they wanna post it in it's best form. If you don't want it happen make clear notice of it in your tos and finial e-mails/notes.Some People hardly read if it's up only place they will forget. Make it known DO NOT SHOUT THANK'S FOR WATCH OR FAVE'S!

People still don't care. u.u' nwn! I tend look for a complement to give If i'm watching them. If the comment's are too long I might just fave and wonder away. I might shout some thing about it and how i like the color's or how you draw fluff! Be cause I tend try to make sure not stumble on to a page full of "thank you!"'s

My point is most people don't read.

So make sure It's clear in allot of places that way they can see it.

learning from our mistake is what makes us who and what we are. I wouldn't say beware worthy but a great discussion non the less!
vulpinepilot
Feb. 19th, 2013 09:14 am (UTC)
Another viewpoint
Unless it's been agreed to or is in a TOS for Commissions, Im gonna take the commissioners side here.

I view a commission as sold rights. A client of a graphic designer would not allow him/her to print the client's design for re-sale, why does a furry artist get to retain the rights on commissioned works? What seems rude to you seems like a reasonable right to me, and what seems like a reasonable request to you seems like you want ownership of the art drawn for someone else.

again, TOS or other forms of agreement can over-rule this, but when I pay for something like the creation of a piece of art (not just a print), I expect the rights to copy it and repost it. between artists who dont post all their commissioned work, and artists removing images from their gallery, commissioners posting the full work they paid for seems natural, especially if they make mention of who actually produced the image.

I may be looking at this from a more legal standpoint, but from an ethical standpoint, I advocate wikicommons-type approach to intellectual property, and all of MY newer art is copyleft: copy what you want.

Edited at 2013-02-19 09:20 am (UTC)
sigilgoat
Feb. 20th, 2013 10:37 pm (UTC)
Re: Another viewpoint
Comparing commission work for work-for-hire (like a graphic designer) is innapropriate.

Work-for-hire requires a specific contract, in which the artist gives up rights. Without that contract, an artist retains all distribution and ownership to any art they produce, whether the customer sees it differently or not.
Re: Another viewpoint - vulpinepilot - Feb. 21st, 2013 09:33 am (UTC) - Expand
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