?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Previous Entry | Next Entry

A question of morals.

Edit: I re-read the artist's LJ where I was supposed to get this icon. It was called "Free icon day." People had the option of donating for the cause, and if it reached a certain mile marker, the icons would be of higher quality.

Edit 2: Actually, here:
http://grey-jackal.livejournal.com/99567.html

This is the LJ where the icons were promised, as well as the artist. I wasn't very informative with my post, and I want people to read this and get a better understanding.

However as far as I (and a few others) can see, she doesn't owe me anything. Since it was supposed to be 'free icon day', and I donated simply to help the mile marker to get a better icon.
You won't see my comment on there because I made the comment on my now purged LJ account, AuroraBorealia.


Edit 3:
Poked artist, said don't bother, artist did icons anyway. Very grateful.



Over one year ago now, I donated to an artist (who's name i'll keep retracted for now) who had fallen on hard times, and promised every donator would receive an icon. Then depending on the amount she received, the icons would be more complicated (shading, TWO icons, etc). I've poked and prodded this artist, and i've been fed excuses, and that she's 'working on it'. Yet, her gallery shows no proof of this, and a friend of mine who also donated her has not received anything.

So here is where my question lies:
Do I have ANY right to be angry, or make a beware over an icon that I was supposed to get for a donation of $5 I made, or should I just consider it a lost cause because i'm a fool with my money?
Thanks.
Artist's beware has moved!
Do NOT repost your old bewares. They are being archived.
https://artistsbeware.info/

Comments

( 44 comments — Leave a comment )
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
kayla_la
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:05 pm (UTC)
I think you have the right to be upset about not getting something you were told you would get. But I personally wouldn't pursue it. I don't feel it would be worth my time and their stress. I prefer to donate and consider it a gift rather than a cheap commission.

But I don't think you would be necessarily WRONG to pursue it. Just I wouldn't, personally. You should probably be asking yourself if it's worth it to you.
oneoffour111
Mar. 2nd, 2012 10:58 pm (UTC)
Same. This exactly.
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 12:29 am (UTC) - Expand
_patches_
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:07 pm (UTC)
I think you do have a right to be angry... especially since you and the others who donated were -promised- something.
The amount you paid doesn't matter... People have posted bewares for commissions of such prices. It's really the fact that you haven't gotten what was promised.
If this artist didn't want to do work for donations, then they should have never said they'd do icons to begin with.
dakotabailey
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:11 pm (UTC)
I'm in a similar boat (probably with a different artist) but, still. I was wondering if I should talk to the artist about it being that I know that my icons are done. They just haven't been scanned in yet :/
starcharmer
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:20 pm (UTC)
You could always express excitement and high desire to see the finished product. It might help them get it in gear if they realize people are really anticipating seeing their art!
kadaria
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:16 pm (UTC)
I think for a question of morals in comes down to the difference between a donation and a business transaction.

When I make a donation (time, money, bodily tissues) I don't expect anything in return. The exception to this is marrow donation, in which my medical insurance and the tissue banking center offer to help me with the cost and after care for donation (I don't expect anything from my receiver).
There fore, if a furry artist, or anyone is asking for a donation, there is no obligation to me afterwards. Many organizations do offer donor incentives (red cross, hsus) but I don't expect them and I rarely take them. Some donations to these bigger organizations are tax deductible because they qualify as a government approved charity.

If an artist is specifically offering something in return for money though and advertising it as such then I would see that as a business transaction, even if they state that the money is going towards something people would normally donate for such as unexpected medical bills. When the need for blood is high, the red cross and blood banks do not advertise that they are giving away free t shirts, they advertise that we need to replenish the supply and that if you donate you might get a t shirt while supplies last.

So in your case, I think it really depends on how you felt when you gave this person money. Was it a donation or did you feel it was more like a business transaction? I can't answer this for you but I wanted to mention how I felt about donations since it seems to be something that comes up with furries a lot. I apologize in advance if this seems really flawed to others, but this is what has worked for me for years and I haven't been disappointed since. If anything I get really excited when I do get something cool like movie tickets or a pound of coffee (blood supply is always critical in my area).
mialattia
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:23 pm (UTC)
Well said!
(no subject) - immortalpanda - Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mrst4nkr - Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 12:35 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - theidolhands - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:05 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:09 am (UTC) - Expand
Nuts. - theidolhands - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:14 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Nuts. - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:23 am (UTC) - Expand
starcharmer
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:16 pm (UTC)
Personally when I donate to someone I consider it a donation, regardless of what they promise because I know sometimes things happen and fall by the wayside. If I'm going to donate, I'd prefer it to be a gesture of kindness on my part and not a promise of something on their part.

That goes for when people hold deals where if you advertise for them, they'll draw you a picture as well. I'd rather just help them out without expecting anything in return.

I'm also a worst-case scenario type person, so I'd rather have an unexpected surprise than get my hopes up for something and be disappointed!

HOWEVER, like others have said, you were promised art so you essentially commissioned this person. You are owed something, whether it's the icon or the $5 back.
I agree with kayla_la. Decide whether or not the $5 is worth your time and their stress.

kadaria said it very well in her last paragraph above, too. :) I agree with her as well!

Edited at 2012-03-02 07:18 pm (UTC)
mialattia
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:22 pm (UTC)
Wellp, here's the thing... if it was agreed that it was a donation out of your own kindness and an icon was going to be more like a courtesy art version of a 'Thank You' card, then there is NO business contract. Then again, you could also argue that there was a contract when you exchanged icon info... but I'd say the former scenario seems most likely by the way you continue to say 'donation' instead of payment.

I understand the frustration, especially if you donated after she had promised icons, so therefore you donated, expecting it to be worth your while to do so. But, after all, it is a donation, and the way things go with those is there's no binding contract nor any incentive for the artist to do it, really. If she'd intended to do icons she shouldn't have promised it to entice people (if that's how it happened), but there you are.
shukivengeance
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:29 pm (UTC)
This is an interesting question because it depends on where one draws the line between a donation and a commission.

By virtue of being called a 'donation' there is the connotation of it being in the spirit of a gift to help someone out and it doesn't really hold the same weight of obligation that a commission does. I have donated before and while there usually is the line of they'll try to do something for those who help, it's never something I've tried to hold them to.

However, if these items were a concrete guarantee, then that makes it more like a commission imo. You aren't necessarily in the wrong to pursue it, but in future my suggestion would be to refrain from donating to people in exchange for things and just stick to making concrete business transactions instead.

As for pursuing getting your item, ask for WIPs since she's apparently working on it or try to set a deadline of some sort.

dustmeat
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:21 pm (UTC)
The artist promised to deliver and she did not. That is bad business, even if you donated. No progress sketch? You had to poke and prod? It does not matter if only $5 was lost, she should have made you happy.
theidolhands
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:06 am (UTC)
agreed.
pariahsdream
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:49 pm (UTC)
I'm going to bring up another point. While I'm in the camp of 'eh, I let donations go the way of the world' there is something to be aware of and be careful with. You mentioned that the artist has fallen on hard times- was this a one off instance? Is it reoccuring? That's the problem of donations.

I had a 'friend' that constantly and almost continuously asked for donations, usually changing up what was needed (vet visit, mom care, brother/sister/nephew's birthday/X-mas/get well gift, etc, etc). She spaced these things out over the course of the year(s) to where I didn't catch on at first. In once instance she managed to fund her own wedding purely on 'donations' and a raffle system that was a money racket if I've ever seen one. To this day, I think maybe a handful of people (if that) who donated got the promised art.

So in cases like this, where someone continually and constantly abuses other people's good will- then yes, if you decide to go in for it, treat it like a contract. Screenshot the shit out of things. Get things in writing and make them give you a deadline. Personally? I wouldn't touch that person with a 10 foot pole because I don't like my good will being taken advantage of nor made to be a fool when something 'shiny' is waved in front of my face.

As to your specific situation, I'd be a bit more zen and say 'eh, good karma is good karma' and let it go.
thistlewolf
Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:25 pm (UTC)
Well said.

"I wouldn't touch that person with a 10 foot pole because I don't like my good will being taken advantage of nor made to be a fool when something 'shiny' is waved in front of my face."

After having years of good luck, something similar happened to me. I commissioned someone under a special deal, so they could pay for an important bill, and the artist later (and very casually) disclosed to a mutual acquaintance that the money was never spent on it. They've made headway on the art since then (plus they edited the original journal so you can only find the cause alluded to in the comments), which means I haven't had a completely solid reason to make a stink...

BUT I don't like being lured into spending money that way. It'd be like going to a steak fry for the fire department and finding out someone took the money and spent it on beer instead.

To the OP: I would definitely stick to either donating just to help (with no expectations) or just outright commission the person in question. That way there's no question if the artist flakes out on you.

Edited at 2012-03-02 09:28 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - pariahsdream - Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
neolucky
Mar. 2nd, 2012 10:04 pm (UTC)
I don't necessarily call it a donation if they're promising something in return. If you were expecting an icon out of it, then honestly I'd pursue that.

However if you gave under the guise of "Donation" then perhaps it's best to just let it go. Generally when I see people offering something 'quick' for donations I tend to be skeptical that they'd even finish them. It's no longer a donation if they're doing items in return - it becomes a commission.
bailzzararco
Mar. 2nd, 2012 10:53 pm (UTC)
I did this, too. I donated to a suffering artist, and was promised an icon...never got it, never got even a thank you. Won't be doing that again.
dinogrrl
Mar. 3rd, 2012 12:14 am (UTC)
What other people said--if you gave them money as a gift, then just let it go. If you gave it to them as payment for art, then sure, go ahead and pursue it. It's really up to you and what your intent was.

I've donated and never gotten the promised art, but in that instance I was giving them the money as a gift. I wasn't expecting anything in return, even though it was promised, so I didn't pursue it. Though at least a 'thank you' would have been nice. *shrug* I don't think anyone who donated ever got that art. Yeah, it stinks that people don't follow through with things like this, buuuuut unless they start doing this repeatedly, there's not much to do.
vellacraptor
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:03 am (UTC)
Did the journal specifically say the donators would receive an icon? If its called free icon day, then one would think its she does as many as possible for free. If accepting donations, then it would be just that, not a commission. Offering higher quality icons if a mile marker is reached is just an incentive to donate, but unless the original journal specifically states (or she told you you would get one) donators are for sure getting an icon, then no you may not get an icon and all you did was literally donate. You could prod and ask her about it, but it isn't something she'd be obligated to do for you.
lackoflollies
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:11 am (UTC)
"4. If you cannot donate, that's okay! You still get an icon! (it wouldn't be free icon day otherwise? now would it?!)"

That's where the problem lay. Said "leave a reference of your character or pet, what facial expression you'd like and if you donated! :3" So I basically gave her money on the premise of getting icon, but I totally understand where you're coming from.
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:12 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fatkraken - Mar. 5th, 2012 12:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 5th, 2012 02:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - vellacraptor - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:24 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:27 am (UTC) - Expand
lackoflollies
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:14 am (UTC)
Actually, here:
http://grey-jackal.livejournal.com/99567.html

This is the LJ where the icons were promised, as well as the artist. I wasn't very informative with my post, and I want people to read this and get a better understanding.

However as far as I (and a few others) can see, she doesn't owe me anything. Since it was supposed to be 'free icon day', and I donated simply to help the mile marker to get a better icon.
You won't see my comment on there because I made the comment on my now purged LJ account, AuroraBorealia.
vellacraptor
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:21 am (UTC)
I can see where it's confusing especially because of that 'can't donate still get an icon' line, and her rules are very vague. :c
There's no real indication of donation priority or otherwise so I'd just cross my fingers and hope she ends up doing it in the end.
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:24 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - starcharmer - Mar. 3rd, 2012 02:08 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 3rd, 2012 07:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
celarania
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:32 am (UTC)
I'd say look again at the terminology. Is anything promised for donations, even as a group? What I mean, is if the artist said something like "If I get $xxx, I'll do y." In that case, that would be a contract to me. It's a contract made with all the donators.

If they ever refer to it as a "tip" I'd say that's another sign it's a contract.

However, I'd generally say that if they say "donation" consider it a gift, by the same token I'd tell artists to consider donations a contract.
lackoflollies
Mar. 3rd, 2012 02:11 am (UTC)
I added the journal at the top of the entry, you can take a look and see.
(no subject) - celarania - Mar. 3rd, 2012 02:50 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lackoflollies - Mar. 5th, 2012 02:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
( 44 comments — Leave a comment )

Profile

A_B icon
artists_beware
Commissioner & Artist, Warning & Kudos Community
Artists Beware

Community Tags

Powered by LiveJournal.com