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Rafflone - Tracing/Heavy Reffing

WHO: Rafflone, Soomiko on Second Life (Found on her FA)

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rafflone

WHAT: Multiple tracings and/or heavy reffing from both Second Life avatars and Poser with no credit given or admission.

PROOF: Litany of screenshots to follow. I apologize for the number, but with tracing posts, I want to make sure I am well documented.


Many of the following are NSFW and I will try to label them as such.

The first overlays I saw:
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1444/rafflonecomparisons1.jpg
These are older artworks that I could no longer find on her page.

My own overlays/comparisons:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/65/raffloneproof1.jpg - Dragon from Shrek (The customer's dragon IS a Shrek style dragon, but that face matches up MUCH too closely.)

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6932/raffloneproof2.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3874/raffloneproof3.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5689/raffloneproof32.jpg (alt view) - Doberman by Chimera/Avenity/Orange04

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2107/raffloneproof4.jpg - Sergal by Kinzart Kreetures/Sylver Bu/Species by Mick39 on FA

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5135/raffloneproof5.jpg - Avatar by DSD Designs/Oken. (The customers character is the standard ram avatar with those peircings, so this is anecdotal evidence)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3788/raffloneproofhorses.jpg - Giant collage of horses, all based on the Avenity/Chimera/Orange04 model. The bottom two were for two separate commissions done at different times, left is female, right is male.

http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneProofboobs.jpg - NSFW - Many of her breasts are traced using the small nippled model from DERP. I don't own these, so I wasn't able to get a good side by side.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/265/raffloneproof7.jpg - Anectodal evidence, I believe this comes from the Curious Moufette, but I don't own the avatar and couldn't do a good side by side.

Probably traced/heavily reffed from Poser (side by sides not mine):
NSFW - http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187 - The change in style and facial structure were the huge giveaways here. (hosted here in case of deletion: http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneArt1.jpg)
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7663/raffloneposer.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5756/rafflonepose4.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/217/rafflonepose2.jpg - NSFW



EXPLAIN: As a customer of many avatar builders on Second Life, I was acutely aware that something was "off" with Rafflone's art. Once I saw an overlay, however, I was stunned. This was several months ago and I wanted to see if any of her customers or friends would come forward, or if her style would change at all. Unfortunately, I'm still seeing more of the same. I mean no ill will towards the artist, but this crutch will do nothing but hinder them in the long run and is taking a lot of creative license from the avatar creators.

EDIT 1 - rehosted two images

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Comments

( 176 comments — Leave a comment )
Page 1 of 3
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grygon
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:06 am (UTC)
Maybe it's just me? but most of these comparisons are borderline to me.

#1 and #4 overlay make strong cases, but the others... I don't really see anything that strong. A lot of people reference things but there's a lot here that she changed and most of the others, to me, don't even seem referenced from the screens you provide, but like they coud be referenced from any number of furry art out there. The pose of the shrek dragon may be similar and so is the design, as the commissioner requested, but everything else is slightly different.

And again maybe it's just me but it's not that hard to find a dog muzzle that is straight and thus seems to be traced- but as most of the other facial features are very different, I am hard pressed to think of some of those dog faces as traced or even referenced from the same comparison you provide.
sigilgoat
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:11 am (UTC)
I am quick to admit that I am not OCD about getting my SL model to fit exactly, since I wasn't willing to spend money to upload the ref materials in world to get them to fit.

The horses were the huge giveaway to me, it was absolutely startling when I saw how well they matched up, in the muzzle width, eye and ear placement and otherwise.

Anyway, it's up to everyone to form their own opinions about what I've presented. I'm not personally attached to this case.

(no subject) - grygon - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:19 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fatkraken - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lurkerwisp - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
fatkraken
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:14 am (UTC)
The SL referencing is definitely a bit off, but the poser ones just look like completely legitimate referencing for pose and anatomy to me. http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/217/rafflonepose2.jpg (NWS) for example is very clearly NOT traced, the angluations and proportions are different.

Unless you have a sexy girl at home willing to pose in the nip for you at any time, you have to reference SOMETHING to get an image looking right. It's not traced, it's not eyeballed to look exactly like the poser image, it;s just, well, posed the same.

Won't defend the SL stuff though, that's just bloody cheek.
sigilgoat
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:16 am (UTC)
The Poser side by sides were not captured by me, I will update the post to reflect that, and describe them as "heavily reffed" as well. I meant to do that, I apologize!
(no subject) - fatkraken - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:23 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - frazzled_niya - Dec. 6th, 2011 04:09 am (UTC) - Expand
nurikochan
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:21 am (UTC)
I may be completely wrong since I've never used the program... but wasn't Poser originally supposed to be used as a reference tool for artists, before people started using it as an easier way to do 3D art without having to code it all? I know lots of people who use it that way.
ginkaruja
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:23 am (UTC)
I do believe that's what I've seen it advertised for in art magazines and art supplies catalogs.
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fatkraken - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:31 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - wolf_goat - Dec. 7th, 2011 11:06 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ginkaruja - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - grygon - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:06 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ginkaruja - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:12 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - grygon - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:57 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - copper_curls - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:59 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - grygon - Dec. 7th, 2011 12:59 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - elmenora - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - grygon - Dec. 7th, 2011 01:00 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shukivengeance - Dec. 7th, 2011 03:32 am (UTC) - Expand
jono_m
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:28 am (UTC)
http://www.furaffinity.net/full/4795652/ I also really suspect this one due to the faces and hair.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187/ and agreeing with this being a trace, the lighting looks very DAZ/poser-like and in some parts it looks like they didn't even try to change it.
copper_curls
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:31 am (UTC)
The latter of these two was done for Kit Keiko and me. So far as I know Kit does not consider this traced, Frankensteined or 'heavily reffed', and I certainly don't.

GingerM
(no subject) - copper_curls - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:32 am (UTC) - Expand
ogawaburukku
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:36 am (UTC)
Nah. Sorry, I don't see tracing, I see reffing, and not very heavy reffing at that. I also don't see why reffing stock photography of a woman is bad... I buy pose books of naked men and women for that reason. Unless it's a trace, there is nothing wrong with reffing anatomy from a photo-- especially when it resembles the photo hardly at at all.
candyfizzle
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:42 am (UTC)
There are some that I definitely see as a trace! And some that seem more like references.
It doesn't mean the traced ones are okay, it just means we might wanna narrow the links down to the ones that are a bit more clear on it.
otherscape
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:57 am (UTC)
The first one I can see a trace (it even has that uncanny valley effect on the rabbit), but the others I'm going to call heavy referencing.
enter_data_here
Dec. 7th, 2011 04:06 am (UTC)
Same here, the top one of the first looks like it could be traced, but seeing all the other work which is clearly reffed - or in a lot of your examples, just similar in style and pose - I think it's just a case of heavy referencing.
celestinaketzia
Dec. 6th, 2011 02:59 am (UTC)
Even if she is just reffing the SL ones, doesn't it need to be credited as it isn't a free resource? Poser, I thought, was meant to be a program to reference from, but the SL avatars are not!
copper_curls
Dec. 7th, 2011 03:49 am (UTC)
I agree with you on the ethical side of it, but the Linden Labs TOS regarding snapshots seems pretty wide-open; I posted it further down. And someone else speculated on avatar makers prohibiting snapshots, but I don't see how they can prohibit it in a public sim, say like Help Island, or by people who haven't bought their avatars. It would be like Ford trying to say people can't take pictures of Ford cars.

Again, not to defend people who use SL pics as tracing sources or references, but the only infringement I can see would be if they used someone else's SL pics without permission. If they take their own...?
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Dec. 7th, 2011 10:39 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - oceandezignz - Dec. 8th, 2011 11:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - copper_curls - Dec. 9th, 2011 03:30 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - oceandezignz - Dec. 9th, 2011 08:20 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - copper_curls - Dec. 10th, 2011 05:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kerstin_orion - Dec. 10th, 2011 03:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - oceandezignz - Dec. 10th, 2011 04:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - copper_curls - Dec. 10th, 2011 08:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
anjel_kitty
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:08 am (UTC)
I also see really strong reffing, but not out right tracing. There are features about how she draws faces that gives more to her stylistic choices and bring a little emotion into them that the SL avatars don't capture. Though the noses on the canines matching up so exactly do make me think she might have traced some aspects or at least used them as a background transparency to get the proportions. With that said its pretty obvious she heavily refs these images, and maybe should make a point of giving credit to the people who produce the SL avatars.

On a slightly related note, after all these tracing posts, I've taken to only using photographs I take myself in my art these days, or ones I can draw out of my head with out looking at a pose ref. This is not to say I've always done this in my art and in the past when I was developing as an artist I did heavily pose ref from other artists' art even down to drawing the same species in the same poses. But I'm realizing now that its best to try to find your own material so instances where people come down on you for referencing others art can be avoided by just drawing from life, using many different references to put together into a new image, or just using photos or 3D models you create yourself.
anjel_kitty
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:13 am (UTC)
Of course when your favorite subject matter is distorted female anatomy and porn scenes that don't have many real life comparisons, I guess it can be hard to find the right sort of refs to use outside of SL.
(no subject) - celarania - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:36 am (UTC) - Expand
temrin
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:31 am (UTC)
-nods- i definitely see heavy reffing. A few things are spot on but not the entirety. Just parts.

Regardless, no matter if references were open source/free to use (if poser is or not. I don't know) It is artist etiquette to site that reference or at least say reference was used. Because honestly, without saying it was reffed, you are giving your clients and viewers a false 'image' of your art. That it is not referenced and all their own work, when in fact, it is not.

Theres enough difference on most of those to be fine in my books if rafflone said that they were referenced. But as they are not, it makes me go :/ that is dishonest in my books. T_T
stormslegacy
Dec. 6th, 2011 04:54 pm (UTC)
I don't agree. I think it's assumed that most artists use references. Nowhere in the professional art world do people say "and I used refs" when posting their pics.
(no subject) - temrin - Dec. 6th, 2011 05:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shukivengeance - Dec. 6th, 2011 05:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Dec. 6th, 2011 07:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - temrin - Dec. 6th, 2011 07:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shukivengeance - Dec. 6th, 2011 07:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Dec. 6th, 2011 08:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shukivengeance - Dec. 6th, 2011 09:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Dec. 6th, 2011 09:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ginkaruja - Dec. 6th, 2011 10:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shukivengeance - Dec. 6th, 2011 10:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kerstin_orion - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ginkaruja - Dec. 6th, 2011 10:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - temrin - Dec. 6th, 2011 10:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ginkaruja - Dec. 6th, 2011 10:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kerstin_orion - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ginkaruja - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kerstin_orion - Dec. 6th, 2011 11:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
ducttapeninja
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:32 am (UTC)
I'm sorry, but this one is way too blatantly obvious to me. Even without a comparison pic, this whole scene looks way too 3D for comfort, especially compared to Raffleone's other works-- Her other stuff looks really 2D, but this one's borderline creepy to me.
grygon
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:46 am (UTC)
I took a quick glance at her gallery and I see several that have a 3D feel to them, actually.
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Dec. 6th, 2011 03:53 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Dec. 6th, 2011 10:36 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shukivengeance - Dec. 6th, 2011 09:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - celarania - Dec. 6th, 2011 07:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
copper_curls
Dec. 6th, 2011 03:47 am (UTC)
NSFW - http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187 - The change in style and facial structure were the huge giveaways here. (hosted here in case of deletion: http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneArt1.jpg)

This piece was commissioned jointly by Kit Keiko and me. Personally, I don't see the resemblance to Poser or DAZ models. If you have an overlay, that would be helpful. For what it's worth, I have the WIP sketch Rafflone sent to Kit and me during the commission process, and again, I don't see anything that suggest tracing or Frankensteining. If you'd like to see the sketch, I can provide it, but I'd have to ask Rafflone first to be on the safe side. You needn't worry about it disappearing from FA, either; it's also posted in my gallery. All I can offer is personal opinion on the other pieces under discussion, so I'll refrain.

GingerM
myenia
Dec. 6th, 2011 04:03 am (UTC)
Some of them are clearly traced, but even the others that people are only calling "referenced" are clearly traced as a starting point, and then edited. You can say that they're different (and most people here are), but that does not mean it was not traced. The thing that matters isn't the end result...its whether or not the artist drew it without the assistance of somebody else's art. Tracing does not become okay simply because the end result was changed from the original enough that its not an exact lay-over. Some of these are close enough to be able to eyeball and tell that they were definately originated from the models.

It actually really pisses me off that so many people on here are justifying the loose tracing by calling it referencing. Just because she's a smarter tracer than the others we've had recently on A_B and changed more than just the hairstyle.
myenia
Dec. 6th, 2011 04:06 am (UTC)
That said, there are a few in here that are not traces, obvious by the slightly-different angle in the finished image.
(no subject) - sigilgoat - Dec. 6th, 2011 04:15 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - copper_curls - Dec. 6th, 2011 04:40 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - starcharmer - Dec. 6th, 2011 02:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
frazzled_niya
Dec. 6th, 2011 04:13 am (UTC)
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9600/rafflonepose3.jpg <- Imageshack removed this image.

:\ looks like uber heavy referencing to me if not partial tracing and altering.

That 3D looking picture stands out too much from her normal stuff o_O;
sigilgoat
Dec. 6th, 2011 04:17 am (UTC)
Ah shoot, that's one I didn't have hosted. I'll remove it.
vellacraptor
Dec. 6th, 2011 05:01 am (UTC)
To me it might not be traced, but that heavily referencing is almost just as bad imo.
And that one that is a commission with the two is so out of her style...yeah it's fishy.
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