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Mod Post: Rules update and reminder

Rule number two states: "Whatever happens in the community, stays within the community. Do not go to the offender's LJ or art site account and harass them, or contact them any other way if the matter under discussion does not regard you personally."

Unless you have a direct transaction with an artist or commissioner involved in a beware post, you are not to contact them IN ANY WAY. This includes emails, private messages or notes, and instant messengers.

We will not tolerate harassment of anyone, no matter their alleged infractions.


Additionally, rules number 1 and 5 have been updated. Please go to our community info page to read the changes and refresh your knowledge of all of the rules.

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Artist's beware has moved!
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Comments

( 22 comments — Leave a comment )
beechan2
Apr. 14th, 2010 12:21 am (UTC)
Understood and thanks for the heads up!

~~Bee
celestinaketzia
Apr. 14th, 2010 12:49 am (UTC)
I highly appreciate the change to rule 5. Thank you.
onesteptwo
Apr. 14th, 2010 01:07 am (UTC)
Thanks for the update on rule five. There really was nothing wrong with the last post I saw argued. I could read it easily enough and am pretty sure that I got all the information required.
lilenth
Apr. 14th, 2010 02:12 am (UTC)

Personally imho regarding five? I've seen some really incoherent posts get allowed through. One post I had no idea whether the poster was complaining or just having a stream of consciousness bout, their post leapt around and there was a lot of waffle and not much in the way of actual information.

So yeah, I don't agree on that rule because it's not rude to politely request that someone neaten up their post or provide more information, and anyone being abusive about a poorly written post would come under the no flaming rule.

To be honest, I think the community is starting to get a little over-modded, there's a large difference between preventing abuse and harassment and moderating to the point where people can land up banned for saying something innocuous, and with all due respect I think the rules are starting to cross into the latter.

There's a large difference between "I don't care for their work personally" and posting abuse about someone's work after all. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate this community and all the hard work the mods do, but equally well, I also am looking at the situation and seeing issues that could potentially be exploited to cause bad blood and drama.
kerstin_orion
Apr. 14th, 2010 02:28 am (UTC)
You readily admit that you have difficulty following others' logic because you think along different logic paths than 'neurotypical' people. I cannot and will not force people to try to write in a way that makes sense to you.

You are certainly welcome to ask for clarification or specifics if you do not understand, but you are not allowed to make a blanket "this post is incomprehensible" comment.

We have already discussed the 'I don't care for their work' instance, in both the original post and PMs. I kindly ask that you keep that specific issue to PMs rather than bring it up in this post.

Furthermore, no one has been banned for saying something innocuous, and plenty of people have been given more than the single warning the rules outline. Very, very few have actually been banned, and of those, fewer still were permanent bans.
hollowzero
Apr. 14th, 2010 01:14 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this.

Also just wanted to say this is one of the most helpful comms on LJ, thanks for keeping it up. :)
lilenth
Apr. 14th, 2010 06:30 pm (UTC)

I wasn't the only one who took one look at the post and went "What are they saying?" I had a neurotypical friend view it and they couldn't make heads nor tails of what the person was saying, therefore it is not me; also several other people found it confusing since a lot of the replies did say that it was hard to read, I doubt they were all Autistic. The post was extremely poorly written, I've deciphered difficult posts before, but ones with a complete lack of structure in several areas are real slog and a half.

It was also a giant wall of text. Have you tried reading a giant poorly structured wall of text? It's not only a headache, it's really annoying when one is also dyslexic. I had to take five minute breaks and keep marking my place in it to get through that post and I still had no clue as to what half the problem was and I checked the person's journal, completely legible posts, so it was not as if they couldn't write clear posts.

My point is that posts have got through that have more than bordering on total incoherency. I can read giant walls of text, I can read posts without grammar, I can read posts with an inconsistent time line. All three together though turn a post into a jumbled mass that has no thread whatsoever to follow and results in a massive headache and a complete loss as to what on earth the complaint is; and I've seen that get posted.

I'm just pointing out that as it stands the rules are a little too black and white. I may view the world in terms of black and white but when even I'm thinking you're being over-zealous in eliminating the grey areas, you may be going just a tad too far.
oceandezignz
Apr. 14th, 2010 04:37 am (UTC)
Okay I'm going to be a little blunt here.

I'm sorry you feel this way about us and the rules, but these rules have mostly stayed the same from when I joined the comm until now when I became a mod for it. The only thing we've done with these rules is tighten them up as best.

On the topic of you feeling A_B is over-moderated now...may I remind you that for quite awhile Kerstin was pretty much on her own (her help was of no help at all), but now you have myself, puppetmaker40 and kayla_la to help her out? Its not over-moderation. Its the sign of team work, and something being done right.

Mistakes are going to happen. People are forever going to try and abuse us/our system , but this is why there are ways to make it harder for that to happen. This is why we are HERE. But none of us can predict what posts and comments will turn into wildfires. Some of the most harmless things will turn into crazed wars.

I'm sorry, but I personally cannot see an ounce of your appreciation, what I see instead is someone who is going to fight us to the ground over anything they can because how we run A_B doesn't fall in line with their views. I'm sorry but given that we have 2k+ views to fall in line with... you know where this is going to go.
lilenth
Apr. 14th, 2010 06:44 pm (UTC)

Tighten them up? You lace them any tighter and the rules will start fainting like victorian ladies. :P I simply think that the grey areas are starting to vanish too much and given that I think in black and white, when you take it too far even for me, then it's probably getting a bit on the tight side.

I have nothing against more moderators, I don't believe I ever even suggested that, although I do think that a bit more care might be taken to prevent opportunities for backlash, I've seen things happen that I know that some people would have taken advantage of to cause issues and to undermine the structure of the comm.

Rules do not prevent issues completely, you need more than just rules in my experience. I've seen situations where the rules were followed to the letter and still there were issues for one reason or another.

And I personally suspect that your response is at least partially down to my comment being criticism rather than a response to what was actually said. I'm not bringing it up to be hurtful at all, it's just that I've seen similar squeezes kill sites dead in the water and I know that being overly lax can do the same thing. Any sort of moderating is walking on a thin beam over a pit, but it sure doesn't help if the top of the beam is at an angle or greased.
thaily
Apr. 14th, 2010 10:38 am (UTC)
Just asking, is there any forum to disagree with the mods and get a response? I mean, the mods can approve a post, but what if 30+ members are wondering why it's there? Like Lilenth's grudge-wank post a while back.


(Deleted comment)
thaily
Apr. 14th, 2010 11:15 am (UTC)
I submitted a post of Livejournal redirecting traffic from it's users links to sponsors which was also not approved because they said the situation had been resolved, which it hadn't. I also got no response when I mailed the mod in question about it.

Obviously the mods are not infallible, and while I understand that there's a time and place to dispute their decisions, right now the rules are effectively excluding the option.
(Deleted comment)
thaily
Apr. 14th, 2010 11:18 am (UTC)
A sure sign of the impending apocalypse :|
(Deleted comment)
thaily
Apr. 14th, 2010 11:23 am (UTC)
I have no excuse.
kerstin_orion
Apr. 14th, 2010 11:49 am (UTC)
I recall the post in question and am sorry you have not gotten a response about your post. I will look into what happened.

If you'd like, you can email it to me and I will help with rewording.
grygon
Apr. 15th, 2010 01:54 am (UTC)
I have personally Pmed all the mods about a certain situation(s) and I usually get at least 1 reply from the 4 (5?) of them. But a single area to contact ALL of them in one blow would be nice instead of PMing each one separately.
kayla_la
Apr. 15th, 2010 01:55 am (UTC)
Well, you generally only get a response from one mod even if you sent PMs to several because we usually discuss it together, and then one of the mods replies with the decision that we decided on. There's no need to get 3-4 replies saying the same thing, after all.
grygon
Apr. 15th, 2010 02:01 am (UTC)
As soon as I posted that I realized my mistake and figured "I bet they are talking then one sends the mutual decision as a reply". But the comment was already posted so... sorry. :/
kayla_la
Apr. 15th, 2010 02:05 am (UTC)
No worries, I do want to clarify publicly that we don't intentionally ignore people. Sometimes things do slip through the cracks and occasionally LJ even eats PMs and the like entirely, but we do try our hardest to take care of everybody. But we aren't perfect, so we appreciate people's understanding if we mess up. Your comment was a good way for me to say that. :)

kayla_la
Apr. 15th, 2010 02:08 am (UTC)
I don't believe you emailed me about your post... if you did, I never got it.

That said... We actually do a lot of consulting each other before we make decisions. For instance, nine times out of ten, we ask for each other's opinions before we reject or approve a post. People don't like having their posts rejected and we understand that, but we try to do what we think is best for the community and sometimes we reject when we KNOW there will be drama with no actual community-related substance from the post (usually, we just ask the person to rewrite the post so it won't attract drama). We never expect people to be happy or agree that their post was rejected, but we aren't running around hitting the reject button willy-nilly, and it's generally a mutual decision between the four of us. So it's not usually just one person rejecting the post.

We actually discussed your post as well. I'm sure Kerstin will be happy to explain to you why your post was rejected, and you've probably already gotten a hold of her through email so feel free to ignore this part. :)
kerstin_orion
Apr. 14th, 2010 12:02 pm (UTC)
Those 30+ members can email the moderators and we can discuss it there. I always respond to PMs and emails.

Not sure which post by Lilenth you are referring to. The first was a legitimate discussion, whether you not you agreed with her observations was up to you. The second was a good advice post as initially written. There was no way to know from simply reading the post that the actual situation was not entirely as written. Had the other party not 'outed' themselves, Lilenth would have gotten advice on the situation as described, even though it may not have been accurate where it related to her specific problem.
kerstin_orion
Apr. 14th, 2010 12:15 pm (UTC)
As for the 'forum' in which to discuss issues with the mods, we do make moderator posts occasionally, usually about updates to the rules or an issue that has cropped up. Members are allowed to discuss the issue and rules there (as is happening in this post now).

Additionally, we mods are more likely to freeze a thread discussing whether a post should have been allowed, or something else that breaks a rule, than screen it completely. This leaves the issue 'in the open', so to speak, where others can see at least the start of it. If they have further questions/discussion, they can contact a moderator privately.
grygon
Apr. 15th, 2010 01:57 am (UTC)
Kerstin, thank you for all your work here. Certainly can be hard pleasing hundreds of people so just stepping out to say good job. No complaints here, you've always been helpful to me!
( 22 comments — Leave a comment )

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