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Paying paypal fees?

I am not sure if this subject has been posted or not and I apologize if it has, but I was wondering how the community felt on paypal fees.  Should they be paid by the commissioner or the artist? As of late I have been taking a fair amount of commissions.  While this makes me happy I've been getting nicked and dimed left and right and it's starting to add up.  I have been letting it slide in the name of not looking like a jerk plus I read it's against paypal's service to have a surcharge.  I am a little confused on fees as well.  When I send money there isn't a fee to pay(I know this is because I normally pay from an existing paypal balance which is free) or if I am forced to use my debit card I always select the personal tab and payment owned.  Using that it only charged me an extra five cents, while the person I was sending money to got the full amount.

Does using the personal tab make a big difference?

I myself personally don't mind paying a fee, because I view the artist like I would any store.  Can't go into a store expecting to get something tho you're only a dollar short , the same should be applied them or at least that's how I view it.  However I can't expect everyone to have my mind fame or thought process.

What are your thoughts?  Thanks for your time
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Comments

( 100 comments — Leave a comment )
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dripbat
Feb. 5th, 2010 04:38 pm (UTC)
I'd just factor it into your total price, at least thats what I do. :)
dazen_cobalt
Feb. 5th, 2010 04:50 pm (UTC)
worried about there being a backlash from doing that ^^;
(no subject) - dripbat - Feb. 5th, 2010 04:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - herraardy - Feb. 5th, 2010 05:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - circlingfreedom - Feb. 5th, 2010 09:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
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likeshine
Feb. 5th, 2010 04:41 pm (UTC)


its against paypal's TOS for the buyer to pay your fees, i believe.

also, using the personal tab too much could freeze your account.
dazen_cobalt
Feb. 5th, 2010 04:49 pm (UTC)
really? thats what I always use when I send payment to others. well they advise me to use the personal tab with payment owed
(no subject) - likeshine - Feb. 5th, 2010 04:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - dazen_cobalt - Feb. 5th, 2010 04:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
As a PayPal Employee: - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 06:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - dazen_cobalt - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - lilenth - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - lilenth - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:11 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - lilenth - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - lilenth - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - pen_umbra - Feb. 5th, 2010 10:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - foxhack - Feb. 5th, 2010 11:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - nambroth - Feb. 6th, 2010 01:28 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - lilenth - Feb. 6th, 2010 10:55 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - nambroth - Feb. 6th, 2010 04:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 11:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - eveshka - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 08:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: As a PayPal Employee: - eveshka - Feb. 5th, 2010 08:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - nambroth - Feb. 6th, 2010 01:25 am (UTC) - Expand
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stormslegacy
Feb. 5th, 2010 04:45 pm (UTC)
If you pay via personal payment you have absolutely no recourse if the buyer runs off with your money. Paypal also watches it's use, and you can get your account suspended.

I've actually found many people chip in extra money for the fees, but even so I keep the fees in mind when I price my things. There's always overhead whether you're selling at a con/show/online, whether it be paypal fees or table cost. It's the cost of doing business and needs to be considered when pricing.
stormslegacy
Feb. 5th, 2010 04:45 pm (UTC)
Meant to say SELLER not buyer...oy!
(no subject) - dazen_cobalt - Feb. 5th, 2010 04:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - spiffystuff - Feb. 5th, 2010 05:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
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snobahr
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:01 pm (UTC)
The bottom line
PayPal is a convenience. (Thank you, Captain ObviousBahr).

It's a(n in)convenience for the seller, it's a (major) convenience for the buyer. PayPal knows it's such a great convenience. Factor the fees into your price structure, especially if most of your transactions are online/via PayPal.

clockworkgh0st
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:06 pm (UTC)
i personally use this calculator to factor the fees INTO the final price. so, i suppose in most cases - i have the buyer cover the fees.

additionally, when offering money to others i am always sure to throw in an extra dollar or two to cover fees.
obsidianwolfess
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:07 pm (UTC)
I make the buyer pay it by factoring it into my prices (via shipping, etc). Didn't realize it was against the ToS, but honestly I doubt paypal knows any better when they see $44 going into paypal vs just $40.
nambroth
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:15 pm (UTC)
That's okay. All businesses factor in merchant fees into prices. Now if you asked for $40.00 then said "okay now there's $5.00 for shipping and please add $3.00 for paypal fees" that is not okay. :)
marymouse
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:11 pm (UTC)
I've been trying to explain this to people for a while now. <=)

Echoing what people say here: It is against the TOS to charge your customers the fees. Factor it into your prices.

For example, I did an icon sale recently. I wanted to charge 10 dollars each, instead I charged 11. I could have done 10.50, bu I like whole numbers. I don't usually do that however, I just absorb the cost as the cos of doing business.

Also - if you send payment as a gift, you forfeit your rights to put a claim on that payment. You can send an artist money and never get a commission and there is no way to report it.

I have been trying to find a way to block gift payments being sent to my account. If anyone knows how, I'd be in your debt.
dazen_cobalt
Feb. 5th, 2010 06:47 pm (UTC)
I am thick skulled lol but factoring it into your initial price isn't a problem at all?
(no subject) - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - likeshine - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
nambroth
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:14 pm (UTC)
tl;dr version: You are using a merchant account service, pay the fees as a seller and deal with it or don't use paypal. Money orders, personal checks and cashier's checks still exist.

Long version:
When you charge money for art, you are treating it as income. It is a job. In the USA you are a self-owned business in the government's eyes.

Yes, I know we are all small time. I understand and feel that with all my heart- I too make very little net income on my art, and I rely on it totally for my bills and mortgage payment. I sympathize! However...

As a business I recognize that I am using Paypal as a service. Money transfer services have fees. THIS IS PART OF being a business. Not only is it against Paypal's ToS to ask for buyers to pay the fees, it's just plain bad business. If you had a credit card merchant account (which by the way this is essentially what Paypal IS for most transactions) you would need to pay a fee for each transaction. Heck if someone was paying with a debit card (bank account just like many do on Paypal) you'd be hit with even more fees.

If Paypal fees are hurting you financially, consider raising your prices slightly to offset, or if you don't want to do this-- go back to taking personal checks, money orders, or cashier's checks. These methods of payment do not cost you, the artist, anything. They are more of a hassle and you have to wait for snail mail, yes-- but that is why we eat Paypal fees in the first place, because they are a service.

I am not trying to be rude, but this is the real world. If you owned any sort of physical shop and took credit cards you'd be paying those fees to a merchant account too.

As others have mentioned, don't do business with anyone asking you to send payment as a gift. It's not only against the rules, but you have no recourse if the seller decides to take your money and run. On the flipside, don't ask people to send it as a gift as it's likely to get your account suspended. If you are using it you are exploiting the system.

The reason artists might ask people to use the 'owed' tab is because then the BUYER pays the fee. Which is also pretty underhanded of the artist.

If you commission someone and you want to help them with this sort of thing, consider giving your artist a tip. Not only will they appreciate it, but it's a legit way of doing things. :)

take_walker
Feb. 5th, 2010 06:45 pm (UTC)
God, I wish Paypal told you these things. :| I've never known whether to send money for goods or services, and that owed button just made things more complicated.
(no subject) - nambroth - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - snapcat - Feb. 5th, 2010 07:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Feb. 6th, 2010 01:12 am (UTC) - Expand
greenreaper
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:19 pm (UTC)
For small commissions, I tend to just factor in the fees in what I pay. It's not gonna kill you to pay $10.61 vs. $10, and it's a nice gesture.
lozpie
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:26 pm (UTC)
As a buyer I always feel a bit annoyed when someone says price + shipping + PPfees... and frankly it puts me off. If its already calculated then fine, I don't know any different, but when I sell I pay it myself because I know how it makes me feel as a buyer. I recently did some commissions and occasionally someone sent me a couple of extra dollars which was absolutely lovely of them, but I'd never ask it. I think you just have to sometimes accept paying for a service. I'd rather get a paypal payment than an international money order even if the MO was a few dollars extra.
circlingfreedom
Feb. 5th, 2010 09:32 pm (UTC)
Yep me too. I will usually send it unasked but if they ask it just annoys the hell out of me... same when someone asks for it as a gift. I'll move onto to another artist who accepts that fees are a part of life.
pkempa
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:27 pm (UTC)
A number of my customers have been sending all the payments to me as gifts, when I ask them not to because I don't want my account to get frozen. I dunno what to do about that :(

I didn't realise you could get in trouble for making customers pay the fee, so I might have to do a little price change soon.
thaily
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:40 pm (UTC)
Yes, but no.
As a note, if you send someone money marked as a donation, you won't be able to dispute the payment and get a refund if things go wobbly lateron.

And if customers get miffed when you charge them an additional dollar or so for Paypal fees, just raise your prices and deduct it from that.
dazen_cobalt
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:47 pm (UTC)
Re: Yes, but no.
I have sent payment by using the gift option(this is because I was told to and I didn't know any better)luckily however the commission went off without a hitch. But now that I know this(thanks) I won't ever be sending a gift again as payment
Re: Yes, but no. - epiceternity - Feb. 6th, 2010 12:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
synnabar
Feb. 5th, 2010 05:59 pm (UTC)
When I pay for a commission from someone, I do not mark it as a gift, so no one gets in trouble (I only mark things as gifts when I am just gifting money, with nothing asked in return), but I always try to add in something extra, like a tip, to cover fees... and also because, well, tips are nice.

Of course, tipping is optional, but I try to do it when I can.
vickimfox
Feb. 5th, 2010 06:04 pm (UTC)
Being a small business owner, I know there are a number of costs associated with making a sale.

Paypal fees and credit card processing fees are one of these costs. The Terms of Service with Paypal and the credit card clearinghouse service state that these fees cannot be separately charged to the customer.

This means, doing the following violates the Terms of Service ...
    Price .... $$$
    Paypal fee   $
    TOTAL .... $$$


Most merchants simply deduct the fees from their margin on the sale.

However, other merchants that have a small margin simply increase the price. Instead of the sale price being, say, $20, they set the sale price as $21. Then all customers, paying cash or credit or paypal, pay the increased $21.

However, merchants who sell products that have a stated List Price or MSRP, do not have this luxury and simply have to deduct the fees from their sale margin.

Edited at 2010-02-05 06:05 pm (UTC)
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