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Aaaa, help!

This is more of a question/dilemma than a beware...



Back in 2008 sometime, I took a trade from someone where he made me a... well... shall I say a "ringtone based"? song. After he made me these he wanted a full color image of him and his mate cuddling naked. Well, I'd never drawn porny parts before, and after trying a couple of times and not liking it/not getting it right, I just decided that I was putting too much effort into this piece for what I was given.

By the time we got back in touch, he wasn't with that person anymore and had completely changed fursonas. ARG! So he wanted me to make him a reference sheet. Okay, I thought, still worth more than what you gave me, but whatever I will do it so he gets off my back. I tell him to send me a message on AIM in the next few days with the details and I would get on it. Weeks pass and he never IM'd me, or anything. I sent him a note telling me to just send me the descrip there, with no response.

Well, today, he sends me a note kinda just like "hey where's my trade" or something to that effect. I tell him that I am busy with work (which is true, I'm pulling 50 hour work weeks and have barely posted anything on my FA in the past couple of months). I offered to send him $10 over paypal. He declined and said he wanted art. So I offer a badge or a couple of chibi cards, as that is really all I have time to do right now. He declines again and says he still wants a ref sheet and if I don't have time to do so, to PAY SOMEONE ELSE to make him one.

I tell him that if he can find me a person that will draw a ref sheet for 10 dollars, I will do so, as that's what I find the songs worth, while referencing a friend of mine who takes $10 song commissions (who, IMO, makes killer songs in relation to this kid).

I'm awaiting a response now. If you'd like I can post images of what is transpiring, but at this point, I'm just frustrated and out of ideas. Am I out of line or baseless with this?

Thanks for reading...


EDIT: Sorry for sounding sort of snarky. I was pretty ticked off yesterday when this was written, because it was like I couldn't make a deal with him. And I did devalue him which is shitty, and I apologise for that.

In any case, I'm having a friend/frequent commissioner draw him up something that he will color later (that I'm fronting the cash for). Though, surprise surprise, he doesn't have a description or anything done for his character at all, and now we're both waiting for that.

I'm quite aware I dropped the ball on this, (see comments D: ) but I just wanted some honest opinions, and I thank you for that. :3

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Comments

( 26 comments — Leave a comment )
bladespark
Sep. 30th, 2009 01:19 am (UTC)
Well... while it's totally understandable that you wouldn't want to finish a picture that it turned out was sucking that much, I don't get how a reference sheet is so much more work than a two-character pic, which is what you agreed on.

To me I don't see this in terms of money (a song is worth x dollars and a ref sheet is worth y) but in terms of what you actually agreed to, ie. a song for a two character pic. Unless your ref sheets are unusually elaborate, then one ought to be about the same as a two char pic. And since you're the party that didn't come through on the original deal, in my book it's up to you to make good by doing something equivalent. Maybe if your usual ref sheets are really that much work you could do a simplified ref sheet of some sort?

Really in the end your friend who does $10 songs or your estimation of the worth of this guy's music are irrelevant, what it boils down to is you agreed to a trade and you didn't provide what you agreed to, so it's on you to make it up with something that's equivalent.

I totally sympathize with you not having enough time, and I totally understand why you didn't do the original piece, but from the other guy's point of view he's done his part and gotten nothing at all in return, which kind of sucks.
teahound
Sep. 30th, 2009 01:44 am (UTC)
I can say I find ref sheets more work than even a two-character piece, but that could just be me. xD I can find more natural posing and inspiration with two-character pieces, and it's a lot harder to feel inspired working on a ref sheet for me.
stormslegacy
Sep. 30th, 2009 04:30 pm (UTC)
I agree with this, it's much harder to get the different angles to match up and look like the same character consistently than to make two seperate characters, that's why my ref sheets are priced higher.
enveri
Sep. 30th, 2009 11:02 pm (UTC)
I third this. Ref sheets are alot more difficult. :)
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 01:59 am (UTC)
Actually, and this was really stupid on my part, is that he did his part first (when I said what I wanted, and told him to send what he wanted back) and then told me what he wanted. ._. It was one of the first trades I ever took, and looking back, I should have laid out better er... what's the word here... regulations? or something. In any case, I've decided to get with a good friend/person I commission frequently and are working things out.
bladespark
Sep. 30th, 2009 02:03 am (UTC)
Ah, I hadn't caught that. It is a different situation if the whole thing wasn't agreed on up front. I'm glad you've found a solution, good luck with it. :)
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 02:07 am (UTC)
Thanks, :3 and I appreciate your input a ton. :D
lastres0rt
Sep. 30th, 2009 01:33 am (UTC)
Who the hell does ref sheets for $10?

Pay the man and be done with it. I think you're devaluing him, TBF, but asking you to be the middleman on a commission is too much.
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 02:02 am (UTC)
I ended up getting with a friend/frequent commissioner to have her draw the ref sheet. I feel pretty shitty for not doing my part, and most definitely could have handled the situation better, but alas, things transpired as they did.
thaily
Sep. 30th, 2009 07:11 am (UTC)
I'm sorry, but... You felt you were putting too much effort into it?
Does not compute. You made a promise, draw your half.
obsidianwolfess
Sep. 30th, 2009 08:01 am (UTC)
There's a difference between doing your fair share of a trade and basically being ass raped.

A trade half valued at $10 does not merit the other person's half of the trade being worth double or even possibly triple the cost. (Depending on what the artist typically charges. And judging by her reaction, a ref sheet is definitely NOT worth $10 of her time, or a ~30 second ring tone clip.)

It might be awesome to be on the receiving end of a deal like that, but trust me.. To be the one who has to go beyond what's expected, it is a very lousy feeling.

-----

In response to the poster (Kamaka), this guy sounds like he's taking advantage of you.

Hopefully you'll take away some wisdom from the experience though. Don't say things to people just because it's what they want to hear or what will make them leave you alone. If you honestly don't want to draw a reference sheet, turn him down. He'll settle for a badge/chibi if he really wants art that badly. And if not, he may as well just take the money and be done with it.

I'd suggest in future trades that you make a point to the trader that you're half has $X value based on what YOU think the art is worth (not them!), and that will not change based on what their half is. (In other words, both of you should agree that if the trade halves are worth $10, that's the end of it. No exceptions unless you are the one volunteering to make your half worth more.)

Hope you get what I'm saying. ^^
Obsidian
thaily
Sep. 30th, 2009 08:06 am (UTC)
If this were an artist who didn't properly discuss a commission beforehand and accidentally undercharged themselves, we'd all be telling her to suck it up, do her work and learn from it for the next time.
Trading art for music or trading art for money, it requires the same level of professionalism.
stormslegacy
Sep. 30th, 2009 04:33 pm (UTC)
I agree, this is excatly what I was thinking.
animehoneybee
Sep. 30th, 2009 05:41 pm (UTC)
I could agree with this if not for the other party taking so long to communicate and changing their mind about what they wanted much later. By now the OP has realized their error, but they probably could have made something from the work they'd already done on the two character piece and are being asked for something new, completely different, and with no explanation (and therefore no ability to begin it), and now at a time thats inconvenient. So even if we treat it like a commission undercharged, I side more with the OP.

Kamaka seems more willing to right the wrong they did, then the other party is to even get what they want for their side of the trade.
thaily
Sep. 30th, 2009 06:56 pm (UTC)
That's still a matter of the OP needing to have clear boundaries, she should have told the other person "Sorry, but I already made a sketch." and maybe offered to edit the characters slightly, maybe to resemble those of some of his friends so he can give it to them. Or asked for additional work from him as compensation for the extra effort.
stormslegacy
Sep. 30th, 2009 11:15 pm (UTC)
If it's a year later and the piece no longer applies? It was the OP's choice not to continue the porn, no? It was also the OP who decided what his art was worth, and that's not something I am comfortable with.

It doesn't even sound like she let him know that she thought the porn was too hard. This part bothers me--she said she decided it was too much and then never mentions talking to him about it. She just says "when we eventually got back in touch"
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 02:56 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this, this is really helpful and I'll definitely use it in the future. :3
houndofloki
Sep. 30th, 2009 08:07 am (UTC)
Agreeing to a trade doesn't mean offering yourself up to draw *anything* the other person asks you for. Asking someone to draw you porn when they don't have any porn in their galleries (as it sounds like the OP doesn't) is already kind of outta line IMHO. Not everyone is comfortable with that subject matter. And a ref sheet is a lot of time and trouble, far more then what most people expect to be asked for in a trade. If he didn't make sure she was okay with doing that much work AHEAD of time, it's lame of him to ask it from her.
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 02:41 pm (UTC)
Thing being, I was dumb enough to agree to it, so I'm still at fault for not doing it. Though kinda finding it odd later, as anything I had in my gallery at the time 1) didn't have a background on any of my images and 2) I had maybe one "adult" rated image that was pretty terrible, lol (Sort of a joke image for a commission from my boyfriend bought with cookies). And tbqh, I as an artist, every time I tried to draw it, just didn't cut it for me... I felt not so much that I was 'trying too hard', but that I couldn't achieve what he wanted without it looking wonky. (Holy run-on sentence, Batman! Sorry about that. lol)
houndofloki
Sep. 30th, 2009 10:16 pm (UTC)
Well, I'm glad it's working out ok for you ^^
thaily
Sep. 30th, 2009 06:42 pm (UTC)
"Agreeing to a trade doesn't mean offering yourself up to draw *anything* the other person asks you for."

If you don't set any boundaries beforehand or go "Wait, no." when it is first suggested, yes it is. He asked her for X, she attempted X, she felt doing X was too much effort and rather than going "I'm having trouble drawing X, is there anything else you'd like?" and steering him towards something she'd could do more easily she went "It's too much work, the gift you gave me is only worth 10 bucks or so anyway." which is rude and unprofessional.

Also, "nude cuddling" =/= porn. And if she was opposed to porn she should have told him the very moment he asked rather than putz around with it and then try to avoid doing her end of the deal by belittling his.
houndofloki
Sep. 30th, 2009 10:15 pm (UTC)
I just don't really agree. Just because someone agrees to a trade with you doesn't mean it's ok to hit them with subject matter they don't usually draw or a ridiculously complicated request. Trades are supposed to be roughly equivalent, and a ~20 second, "ringtone" music clip for a fully-rendered ref sheet is not...even close. A ref sheet takes a really long time to do well, and it's rude as hell to even ask someone for something THAT out of whack with the amount of work you did.

But different strokes, I guess.
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 02:27 pm (UTC)
I agree with this actually. I wanted to... At the time when he was like "well I don't even have that character anymore, draw me a ref!" I wasn't working as much as I am now... so I waited in what I checked my notes to be about a year, actually. (he'd sent those notes in late October 2008). I ended up back in april or may I think posting a journal asking him if he'd like me to send him money just so everything was square, but I never got anything until 2 days ago.

Still waiting on the description though. :( If I ever get it, I'm probably going to draw him a badge anyways for my shitty incompetance after the ref sheet is done by my friend. :\
thaily
Sep. 30th, 2009 06:53 pm (UTC)
In my opinion you should have drawn the ref, with the information he gave your friend, even if you can only put down 2 lines a day and scan once a week. He'd have understood you being busy and trying your hardest better than "your work is only worth 10 bucks, so here's a tenner"

That said, all of this could have been prevented if you had been clear up front, but I think you understand that now. Write down a little TOS for any future trades and commissions and when someone asks you to do something you don't want to or can't, tell them immediately and politely, but in no uncertain terms.

Also, in regards to trades, be gracious. You don't know how many drafts or how much effort went into making the end result, but questioning the worth of it is very hurtful, and trades are supposed to be fun. Right now it isn't very fun for either of you.
kamaka
Sep. 30th, 2009 07:05 pm (UTC)
I agree completely. I wanted to draw the ref (and I gave him different ways to contact me, eg Aim and email and such) but I didn't hear from him again for forever. Arg ._. I'm probably going to try and help out my friend if I can (He also wants her to just draw linearts and color it himself, so I may color it for him so he doesn't have to. I do want to do something for him.) And now I'm still waiting for the information. When he started sending me new notes 2 days ago it really sounded like he had the information ready and then was like "oh well I don't have that done but I'll leave myself a note to get it to you." ...which is sorta what the other notes ended like, when he'd disappear into oblivion for months.

I was pretty dumb and naive back in 2008, which I know is no excuse, but I can see how I got myself in this hole. Arg.

I really appreciate your input, btw - when I wrote the initial entry I didn't even have his feelings in mind by the way it reads, which is terribly bitchy of me, and I'm glad you've pointed that out.

Wow, that was a disjointed set o'words, I apologise.

(Offtopic - I think your avatar set is pretty cool. :3 )
thaily
Sep. 30th, 2009 07:20 pm (UTC)
Thanks, and I'm glad you're still trying to fix things. Takes a big person!
And people who procrastinate on sending you stuff you need is annoying, yes :/
( 26 comments — Leave a comment )

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