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Experience dealing with the artist "Shiuk"

First: Warning, huge post is huge.

Very well, so well over a year ago I believe, I began the process of commissioning this very well known artist.
Everything I've gotten ever since has been a very terrible experience; and thus I deem it necessary to express it here.
Why? Because I believe both things should exist, warning for "sellers" and "buyers" equally.
This is pretty much copy-paste from a journal entry over FA, but It's good enough to be understood by itself:


"The funny thing is, the first events happened months ago, after other months of waiting; and I left it behind because I stopped caring. I saw the opportunity of giving the person business again a few days ago, and asked for it. What did I get? The same lack of professionalism as the first time. And I am not one who is going to just say "Okay mister famous artist >: "

 

Let's start the story.

 

About one year ago I contacted the artist Shiuk, leaving an inquiry for a 2 character colored commission. I got a fairly swift reply saying that he was open to accept it.

I proceeded to explain what I wanted, followed by prompt payment ((I -always- pay upfront unless the artist specifically tells me not to, or unless I forget :x )).

Cost? 90$

Payment: 100$  for paypal fees and a bit extra because "omgoshhh its Shiuk <: "

 

What happened after that?

First things first, I received an e-mail explaining that he didn't quite understand my description ((Which was pretty simple actually)).

I acknowledged this and re-sent a slightly more digested version, which should make things easier.

He still didn't fully understand, but we agreed to continue.

Just a couple of days later I received my first sketch and was partially content with it, minor changes asked for.

 

After that, time began to go by. Weeks later I had finally received a "slightly updated" WIP with some better lines.

Understandable.

 

Then time kept going once more; weeks and months eventually before I managed to get the lineart finished.

Already quite a bit of time.

Then I had to continue waiting, I -always- had to be the one contacting the artist first to receive any sort of feedback. No real reasons given, but nevertheless eventually after some more months passed I managed to get my finished piece. ((By the end of the process the relationship had already deteriorated quite a lot.)

The main issue is: You know that sometimes you are going to wait months for someone to finish your commission, and that's understandable for whatever reason.

But would you be content if first you see the work progress quickly for a couple of weeks and then stall for over a third of a year?

Not only that, but in between that time -many- and I mean -many- other works were finished before yours even continued? Including other commissions -and- personal pictures?

What kind of treatment is that, without even having the decency to contact your customer about the delays, or even quite care to give an explanation.

 

Did I give him a deadline? I did not, I always let people take as long as they need unless there's a particular reason to rush. And whoever I've dealt with knows this is very much true. But if I’m to have my work take months, then I better see the artist occupied with their personal life, or really doing something and acknowledging my existence, not “Oh im just doing what I want instead <: “

 

Nevertheless, finally after months I got a picture, its quality really wasn't very close to the typical quality of most of this artist’s regular ability. But it was just nodded upon and accepted. What happens?

The artist posts the picture in his gallery, any criticism received against the piece acknowledged by him… but the blame was put upon me, the commissioner.

Excuse me? I give you as much time as you need, way more than you should've, to finish something that I think at least -you- the artist finds respectable... only to hear that you don’t think it’s a good piece?

Excuse me? How is that professional in any way; acknowledging that "it could be better… but it’s not my fault!".

No.

 

Of course this annoyed me greatly. Posted the picture, and complained much as I'm right now.

Shiuk was very quick to "apologize" as long as "I took it down" from my galllery.

And so I did.

We entered talks again, I was greatly displeased. He even offered a new, different one-character picture.

You know what I did? I turned it down, I didn't think just because I was bitching I deserved one full picture more.

Instead I accepted a "Deal", one little chibi picture and some adjustments to the original picture. It sounded fair to me.

 

What did I get?

Nothing.

What do I mean with nothing?

Nothing.

After that I didn't get one single note acknowledging this again, or one single e-mail. Not ever any sort of contact from him.

And yet I didn't care, and kept commenting on his art like anyone else would. "Whatever, terrible experience, terrible luck. I still like his work."

 

I wasn't happy, but I didn't feel like "pursuing" anything.., what was the point.

 

 

Then I see him offering his 40% discount prices just about a week ago.

I e-mailed him. "I'm still not happy with you, and you still owe me things. But anyways, I see you're offering discounts, I'm interested in a 2 character picture. I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself" I added, half joking and half being serious.

It took me a few days, and -having- to comment on his journal about it so that he could acknowledge my e-mail.

 

Here is my problem:

He could've said "I'm sorry, not interested" Sure it would've annoyed me, but I wasn't expecting anything else from him at this point.

But instead what is the reply?

"I must say I was reluctant about taking work from you, but your friend's character is something I'd like to try It'd be 60 dollars, let me know when you can pay to see where to put you on the list"

Did it bother me that -he- is reluctant about working with me? When -I- am the one who was pretty much ripped off in that deal? ((To date, the picture is still not up on either of our galleries, mind you Just w/e )) Of course it bothered me. But I sucked it up.

"Alright, you know I can pay anytime, just let me know when."

 

I had to wait two days, again. And send him an e-mail. "Hey come on, do I have to start chasing you already to get a reply? Gee, so just let me know when you want the money" I said. Again half joking and half serious.

This was the reply I got:

"If you can't wait for me to make the schedule I'm not interested in taking your work.

Thank you for your business"

 

Pardon me, two days to just say "Alright, I'm still organizing myself, wait please", it’s not that hard is it? Anyone with a hint of, not even professionalism, but just a hint of decency and politeness could've done it.

Apparently he couldn't.

 

And so I replied, the last thing I've talked with him and probably will: (Shortened up version)

 

"Alright, altho I don’t see why are you reluctant when I've always gotten the bad end of this. Nevertheless, I'll be posting this on artists beware just to express my unpleasant experience, Enjoy yourself"

Which is what I am doing, as well as posting here.

His reply:

"Have fun"

 

Are we really that bad in this community that artists are just that careless about their business? Because they know people will anyways drool over their porn and pay for it?

That's quite disappointing, but it’s not for me to judge.

However it is something I can do, express -my- opposition to such attitude. And yes, say: "If you want my opinion, I wish you didn't do business with him, it's not worth it".

Will it do anything? Probably not, but as I said, I rather express it than just be one of the rest who see themselves trampled by "popularity".

 

Art or not, when talking commissions; we are talking work.

It is business.

There is mutual respect, or there is no business. That's my thought."

Even worse, I see that whenever there's been an issue with this artist, apparently its always the same. "Oh I let know my friend of this, he'll take care of the situation!" And it's happened before, has it not?
But then my question is, how many times should you have to fix things instead of just doing them right to begin with?
"Oh I don't care until you bitch, because i can't have you bad-mouthing me!" Right, great.


Anyways, that's it. And yeah TLDR; Shiuk is a 100$ gamble. Your choice <:
Yeah, I didn't post any "proof" of this. All the original e-mails and notes are still on my computer/FA inbox respectively tho, I just didn't feel it necessary to get any screenshots or literal quotes, altho it can be done. Just letting this be known so that people dont try to take away credibility to the post because of this.

Artist's beware has moved!
Do NOT repost your old bewares. They are being archived.
https://artistsbeware.info/

Comments

( 222 comments — Leave a comment )
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(Deleted comment)
dripbat
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:31 am (UTC)
This, for the love of god... cut plz.
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foxhack
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:31 am (UTC)
Hasn't he been brought up here in the past?
thanatoast
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:33 am (UTC)
LJ cut this please :(
haricotvert
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:41 am (UTC)
2nded.
(no subject) - kriscynical - Aug. 26th, 2009 04:40 am (UTC) - Expand
haricotvert
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:41 am (UTC)
totally unhelpful, and i'm sorry about all this. popular artists seem to have an ego the size of Canadaland, in FA especially. i never understood it - my reputation is very important to me! you wouldn't catch me pulling shit like this. if i'm taking longer than i usually do, i keep the client updated as often as i can. i hate leaving anyone in the dark.

but also. WOW! $90 for a two-character full-colored? did that include bg? oh my god.. that's a lot of money! (i know every artist has their right to price how they deem fit but JESUS! oughta include a happy ending with that.)
hobokitten
Aug. 26th, 2009 02:26 am (UTC)
This.
I have a commissioner who I haven't been able to get in contact with that I want to give an update because my scanner got stomped, and I feel horrid that I can't tell them :/
I don't see how someone can be so.. caviler about their rep.
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it's decided then. - haricotvert - Aug. 26th, 2009 03:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
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animecat
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:50 am (UTC)
TL;DR PLEASE CUT
almightytora
Aug. 26th, 2009 01:55 am (UTC)
This definitely needs an LJ-cut, first of all.

Second, did you keep in contact with Shiuk during the time that went by in the beginning (the "After that, time began to go by" paragraph)? I am going to assume no. He probably had a WIP for you and you didn't respond back, so he took on other commissions.

If that's not the case, sad to say that some artists I deal with do this stuff as well (do the easy quick ones before the longer ones, no matter who was "first in line"). It is annoying, but the commissioners need to deal with it or get a refund.

I would have just gotten a refund if you were waiting too long. But you really wanted the art and you got it (albeit not in good time and not to your quality). I agree with you that his comment shouldn't have been put in there, but that was probably put in there due to mutual frustration and/or friction between you two already.

But what do you do after you get it, knowing it took him months to finish it? You attempt to try to get another one!? If you have a bad experience with an artist, take what you got and never deal with them again.

He must have gotten fed up with you and just simply refused to accept another idea from you. So, in response to his refusal, you bring up what happened in the past with a commission that was done back in March (from the VCL listing).

So why did it take over 5 months for this post to come out? I smell retaliation.
warsawkook
Aug. 26th, 2009 02:10 am (UTC)
But would you be content if first you see the work progress quickly for a couple of weeks and then stall for over a third of a year?

Not only that, but in between that time -many- and I mean -many- other works were finished before yours even continued? Including other commissions -and- personal pictures?


One thing commissioners need to understand is that it's easier to whip out a personal picture than it is a commission, and it's something artists DO in between working on commissions. It helps blow off steam, kill stress, and it keeps our skills sharp when we're stuck in an art block on someone's commish. I don't know any artist out there who draws purely for profit; we draw for ourselves as well. Artistry is NOT a 9-5 job, and it's not like writing a term paper for school - it's something that takes creativity, and sometimes creativity stalls. It can be because of something small or something huge, but it happens a lot more often than most people think.

As far as having to wait for a third of a year: I can completely understand your frustration in having to wait all that time and watch other peoples' work showing up on his site. That's when you gotta step in and make yourself heard: "Hey, I see all this awesome work coming from you - you didn't forget about my pic, did you?" Any artist worth his or her salt isn't going to come at you sideways over asking for an update. But sometimes artists just work stupidly slow. I'm a prime example, and I always warn people ahead of time - I work slow. I have a full time job and during the summer I usually have a second job. That's not even getting into the ridiculous amount of crap that's been going on in my life ASIDE from work, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's got one of those sorts of lives.

TL;DR if you're unhappy with an artist's speed, ask for a refund. Or set a deadline from the get-go, which will make it easier to get a refund if they miss said deadline.
forsaken_malice
Aug. 26th, 2009 06:41 am (UTC)
This. This exactly.
maddogairpirate
Aug. 26th, 2009 02:21 am (UTC)
I don't know that I need 'proof' here as this sounds pretty honest.

My conclusion though is that while he took a long time, what really soured the second deal was the bad blood over it. True, Shiuk didn't finish in as timely fashion that'd give him good points in that area. But he did finish it.

Those half-joking, half-serious remarks can be deemed another term. Passive-aggressive. I think it wore on him.

I'm sorry your experience wasn't that great, but I think you sank yourself on the second chance more'n the other way around.
thrivis
Aug. 26th, 2009 05:55 am (UTC)
I REALLY agree with this.

The whole "scheduling" thing, the artist WAS hesitant to work with the poster again, but the poster's impatience and "joking" (which honestly read as totally snide to me) probably indicated to the artist he'd have an attitude. And the whole "I'm the victim so you can make it up to me" makes it sound like he's playing for control. Biiiig turn off. Judging by the things the poster DID quote of his own words, I wonder if his prior emails or notes turned the artist off to the project from the beginning. o_o

Both parties could have behaved better.
(no subject) - onesteptwo - Aug. 26th, 2009 04:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
alcyione
Aug. 26th, 2009 02:36 am (UTC)
I'm going to echo what everyone else here has already said, "LJ-cut this". I know that this topic has a lot of backstory, but presenting the facts in a brief, straight-forward manner will help us understand what is going on, without having to parse through many paragraphs.

This post was driven by a lot of emotion, it seems. I agree with what maddogairpirate has already said. If I received statements as such from a commissioner, I wouldn't take it as a joke; I would take it as the customer being demanding and quite frankly, a little threatening.


minimalismo
Aug. 26th, 2009 02:50 am (UTC)
Could you please shorten this post by making a lj cut?
digivolution
Aug. 26th, 2009 03:22 am (UTC)
oh my god put this under a cut

Also echoing with everyone else on the fact that you should have been more professional and less joking/passive-agressive, etc with him.

Edited at 2009-08-26 03:49 am (UTC)
filthy_animal
Aug. 26th, 2009 03:36 am (UTC)
I tried reading all of this... I really did, but about half way through I just started getting annoyed.

Of course they don't want to work with you. Your "joking" with them is completely rude. There is another person behind that screen, not just some art-monkey you throw money at and expect results from immediately.

It has nothing with being "popular". This person clearly didn't understand your idea, told you, and tried working on it for you in-between other commissions. I'm not sure if you are aware, but artists can't just get handed an idea and draw it-- sometimes we really have to be "in the mood" to draw a certain idea/pose/character. Maybe it did take a year for that. Maybe they had personal things going on and they didn't bring it out into the public.

I know it sounds snarky, but all this does is make YOU look like a big pain to work with, IMO. :c
lilenth
Aug. 26th, 2009 11:43 am (UTC)

No offence intended but if you have to be 'in the mood' to complete a paid commission? You've probably not got much business taking money for art. I think that's an idea that should really be squashed imho, that you need to be in some magical special mood to draw something.

I complete my work without having to wait to be 'in the mood'.
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spiffystuff
Aug. 26th, 2009 03:51 am (UTC)
"I'm still not happy with you, and you still owe me things. But anyways, I see you're offering discounts, I'm interested in a 2 character picture. I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself"

... I'm not surprised they didn't want to take another commission from you. I wouldn't either, with that kind of remark, no matter what went on before.

It's not right that the artist would never contact you, but OTOH you say yourself you didn't give any deadlines.
As to the quality of the piece and the artist's comments about it - IDK?

Eh, yes I'm dubious of Shiuk but this post will probably make people leery of taking commissions from you, too.
haricotvert
Aug. 26th, 2009 04:52 am (UTC)
snotty to infinity power, methinks.
neolucky
Aug. 26th, 2009 04:24 am (UTC)
I will echo Filthy_Animal in saying I tried so hard to read this and take it seriously without any biases, but unfortunately in the past I've heard from more then one source about your attitude so from the beginning I was wary about this post. Halfway through I found your writing 'tone' to be obnoxious and quite grating, with a side of snark and revenge-post. Less drama, more facts next time.

You got your art, even if after a long time then choose to make passive-aggressive posts here in retaliation. You aren't providing any evidence. I shall avoid you in the future for any commission work simply because I think we would clash quite strongly.

Tl;dr - You're coming across just as bad, if not worse then the artist in question. Also, learn how to LJ-cut.

ps: You're lecturing to a crowd of people who already understand art is a business, vent your frustrations elsewhere please. (Or gee, you know, in a personal journal.)
bladespark
Aug. 26th, 2009 04:59 am (UTC)
This.

I think I'm putting this one down as yet another "avoid both parties" situation, because this seems to been mishandled on both sides.
(no subject) - rain_oubliette - Aug. 26th, 2009 01:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - onesteptwo - Aug. 26th, 2009 04:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
leahtaur
Aug. 26th, 2009 04:27 am (UTC)
"We entered talks again, I was greatly displeased. He even offered a new, different one-character picture.

You know what I did? I turned it down, I didn't think just because I was bitching I deserved one full picture more."

So he tried to make it right and you turned it down, and then you turn around and out him in this community? Shiuk doesn't have a sterling reputation but the way this post stands, I'd prefer to work with him than you. If someone shows a goodwill gesture like that, you either decline and move on or accept it and give the person another chance (in this case, giving him time to work on the chibi commission you took instead. You don't really give a timeframe for that though.)
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