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Scesmoon/ Chaos61988

will all be behind a cut
quick runview since my im's are so long and confusing of events. Can't prove this with a log though

1. He came to me after seeing the Revonar prisma shaded drawing. Wanted one like that of his character.
2. I shortly after did a sketch, at this time I didn't know it'd be a requirement that I had to have my side done first as it was pretty common at this time that I do my side of trades/commissions first anyhow (hence why I ended up getting screwed over a lot on it) He had some changes he want made, such as the detailing he wanted in the 'jeans thong' or whatever material it is. and how the mushroom things on the shoulders were supposed to look. I made changes, he redlined it then and I redrew it, got his permission to ink.
3. He wanted to know if I was going to finish it, I said yes, but I wanted to see something on his end first before doing so. (this when I thought finishing meant using the prisma colors)
4. Isee him making journals for more commissions and trades and even some "first 5 get gift art" type deals. Now the commissions I understand where some people prioritize although I do not. If you're going to accept more trades finish the others first or at least give them something for it. but then doing GIFT ART when you owe someone was a different story altogether then.
5. I still was nice when I approached him and asked if he was going to do my drawing. He complained about not having too much time on his end due to school (Hell, I've been to school, worked my ass off and still got art done, but I know how it can be for others so the only dampening here would be his willingness to still do giftart for others.) And then he asked me if we could reduce it to an ink trade. Well, ink trade means my side is done then, wouldn't you agree?
6. later after he finished his commissions, other trades, other gift art he left for a while, I even asked then and he never said -anything- about the drawing being wrong. Getting pissed in general, not at him about the trades I deleted his along with a lot of other people's trades that I never got. I put a journal that said nothing more than "I cleaned up all the failed trades/commissions". I never outed Scesmoon until the issue I posted here, and I don't know why people are saying the reason he acted like that towards me was because I was being a dick. I was being very nice to him despite him trying to lie to my face and try getting more art for what apparently would be a half-assed effort in return if he ever got around to it on the chance that it's "See? it's a sketch, I call this a sketch" mentality.
7. I asked every once in a while until he came back, not directly about his art to me but "How's school going? Got any new art?" and it wasn't till he showed proof he was actually drawing again that I decided to ask him

"Hope tihs isn't inappropriate to ask but now that you're drawing again, think you'll get around to your part of the trade? ^^;"


I'll put everything from Scesmoon in italics now.


This is FA pm copy paste, can provide screenshots.

[Hope tihs isn't inappropriate to ask but now that you're drawing again, think you'll get around to your part of the trade? ^^;]

Scesmoon's response

[I'll stop dancing around you and give you a full answer:


It is kinda innapropriate, seeing as i remember discussing this with you over a year ago. i told you i remember everything.

You asked me to do a trade with you to which i replied sure, but i want your end first (because at the time you had a habit of not finishing things) i also asked for something of THIS QUALITY: http://www.furaffinity.net/full/201172/ and remember pointing out that pic in particular.

You said "sure", and it took you i dunno how long to actually give me a sketch. i told you to edit it and you didnt and inked it anyways the way it was. then when i told you i didnt like it you tried to call me out in your journal and on the submission itself. ((which is maybe why the pic is no longer in your gallery? i tried looking for it for reference and its not there..or in scraps.)) i dont have the piece on my computer, i never Downloaded it, i never accepted it.

Last night when you dropped in on ustream i didnt want to get into this, i thought it better to say it to you in private:

If you want to trade with me, fine, but ill expect a new trade with your best effort put into it. im not producing compensation to something i never accepted. im not trying to be mean/elitist or anything else, i simply cant...and after you tried to call me out that one time Ive had a bad taste in my mouth.]


My response
and also can show proof as to most of this as well if I need to dig things up again.
[Now before this starts into a drama I strongly think you should rethink your post.

First off, it was YOU who came to me to ask for the trade. The reason I didn't finish a lot of things -unless- they were commissions were from my lack of motivation. Necessity and priority is motivation to me which a trade definitely was to me, I've not even posted most of my trades because most people (hahaha) blow me off on them.

I drew the pencil, asked what you thought, you wanted some redline changes, I made them than inked (so don't give me that I didn't listen bullshit when I even have your redlined version saved in my photobucket still)

btw, the picture is here
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1154873/ (out of post, don't click if you don't like 4 armed muscle bound anthros in semi revealing clothing)

And the reason I came to you (didn't even say anything publicly) to ask was cause even after I finished my side (maybe you don't remember things as well as you think you do) you kept doing gift requests and taking on more commissions. I remember cause even after you asked me you had done a sketch afterwards for a friend of mine who came to me all happy that you drew them. That's why I came to you then cause it seemed like no pattern was going to change at that time since you hadn't even started working on my trade. What did you say? "Well, I'm too swamped to color, so can we reduce it to just ink trades?" So I said sure and even still I colored it somewhat just cause I thought it'd be cool to color even though you changed your side to just being an inked version. I see nothing wrong with that, especially since I all ready gave MY end of what your newly agreed deal was. So... yeah.]

And here's the AIM conversation

DraGames: I sent you I think a fairly tactful note on FA. I suggest reading it.
Chaos61988: i was actually just replying to it.
DraGames: Oh, okay.
Chaos61988: i reads as follows:
Chaos61988: look, im not gonna debate back and forth with you; there was obviously a reason i said something about your half. i dont blow of people for no reason. im not like that.

yes i do remember redlining a sketch you did, a very early sketch, but i also remember a bunch of frustration with you over a bunch of things
DraGames: ...
DraGames: 'frustrations'?
DraGames: Or something you just made up? I hardly ever talked to you :/
Chaos61988: oh so im just aking shit up? really?
DraGames: Well, what did I do to you then?
DraGames: I don't remember you having too many complaints about the drawing, I don't remember you having to complain to me about my 'behavior' before what little we spoke to each other.
Chaos61988: like i said i dont blow people of for no reason, if i say there was a reason there was a reason.
DraGames: which was?
DraGames: Disinterest?
Chaos61988: i dont need to lie to you..or anyone else.
DraGames: If there's a reason and you never forget then you could tell me.
DraGames: You also were just being a really huge asshole in your post ya know? Saying my drawing wasn't my full effort so I'd have to start a new one if I wanted anything from you?
Chaos61988: and you want to take my words to the extreme and use them against me
Chaos61988: fine
DraGames: No, I don't want you to just be insulting.
Chaos61988: i im such an asshole, and there was no reason, then dont bother. im not in the mood to be called a liar.
DraGames: Well, I dont' think it's fair I actually gave some effort and you've done nothing.
Chaos61988: well that was the reasoning behind me saying you had to finish yours irst..was it not? i dont say that to everyone, or even 10% of people that i trade with.
DraGames: Oh, so you can rip me off?
DraGames: Ask everyone, I keep my end of the deals.
DraGames: except those that lie.
DraGames: But even then, I finished the sketch, heard no complaints after I redrew it with the redlines edited.
DraGames: And it was YOU who came to me asked for the trade and even then asked me if we could then change it from color to just ink cause you didn't feel like doing a colored pic.
DraGames: So yes, if you're trying to go about 'me' being untrustworthy, why is it I gave my side yet you haven't?
Chaos61988: i dont have tie to argue about shit that happened over a year ago, i said my piece, believe what you will.
DraGames: No, I believe you owe me something XD
DraGames: A years time doesn't change that.
Chaos61988: and since you believe that i am a liar and that im just aking stuff up, continue on believing that.
DraGames: Okay, I'll just put you on artist beware and the like then ^^
DraGames: I log a lot.
DraGames: And yes, you are lying even if you're not aware of it.
Chaos61988: thats nice. goodbye
DraGames: You asked me, you also did not complain about the drawing
DraGames: Okay, if you want to go there then.
Chaos61988: lol i went there?
DraGames: Yes.
Chaos61988: your fucking threatening me
DraGames: You screwed me over.
Chaos61988: uck you
DraGames: Yes, I have the right to
Chaos61988: goodbye.
DraGames: You ripped me off
DraGames: therefore I can.
Chaos61988 signed off at 3:58:48 PM.


and that is all.

And I guess more clarification because some people might overlook details *cough cough*
1) I did in fact fix everything before inking. His Red-lining of my drawing woudl be his ACCEPTANCE of my sketch.
2) I did not out him like he says I did, over a year ago I posted his drawing, but after getting nothing back on a lot of trades I posted a journal which I deleted shortly after that said "I'm removing my failed trades/commissions." It did not say anything about him. People might of inferred that if they noted later when I reposted his and some other art and they remembered that journal could of in fact made the link that he owed me art but never did it.
3) I'm aware I told him I'd post it on Artist_beware. I'm not hiding anything. I don't see how that's against me that after his behavior and refusal to do anything asides make excuses up over and over that I can say I would put it up here. Shouldn't it be even more douchey if I did it without warning him if I were doing it for all the wrong reasons?
Artist's beware has moved!
Do NOT repost your old bewares. They are being archived.
https://artistsbeware.info/

Comments

( 116 comments — Leave a comment )
kerstin_orion
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:00 pm (UTC)
Please link to your previous post about this issue. Thank you.
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:45 pm (UTC)
Specifiically what now? There was no previous post on the issue, I posted my part of the trade and when a lot of people never did their end of their trades for me, I took a lot of my 'trade' art down with a journal I deleted saying I was. I didn't single any one name out when I did so. Then I reposed the picture cause it had been a few months anyways and was being passed around anyways so it didn't seem like there was any reason to keep pageviews and fav's off from my site from it anymore.
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westly_roanoke
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:02 pm (UTC)
This is really hard to read...

could you put his part in italics or something? And say which IM name is yours?
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:29 pm (UTC)
Sorry, my IM is dragames. Is italics code?
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bladespark
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:22 pm (UTC)
Well, if somebody isn't willing to deliver what they have agreed to deliver, whether they were paid in money or whether they were paid in art, I think it reflects badly on them either way.

But this case is very "he said, she said" and nearly unreadable, and yeah, I'm with you on the egh. I did NOT want to see that second link.

I'm leaning towards "looks like both sides are behaving badly" here. Particularly with that chat log. Sheesh.
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coyote_feathers
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:40 pm (UTC)
I didn't think that issues regarding trades normally belonged in this comm, since no money had exchanged hands? I don't know, maybe I'm just confused.

This whole situation is sort of hard to understand as well. I'm not sure exactly who is who as far as the chat logs are concerned. It's difficult to draw conclusions from this.
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:52 pm (UTC)
Dragames is mine, I changed all of his responses to italics.
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weaselpard
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)
Speaking as a commission artist here, When I accept trades I work on them as soon as I can. But if a commission pops up in the middle, the trade HAS to be put to the side since the commission is bringing in revenue that I need and brings with it alot more responisbility due to the fact that there is money involved. And as we all know who work hard and pay bills, money is hard to come by, so when someone pays you for a picture, you darn well get it done and on time. With alot of commissions there is a deadline as well, and it's severely bad business to pop up and say to someone 'Pardon me I cannot accept your money at this time as I am in the process of working on a trade' Garuntee'd another commission will not be comming your way.

In all honesty if I were you, I would let the issue drop. Continuing to make a fuss over this is just dragging the whole issue into stupidity and making not only the individual you are dealing look bad, but yourself even moreso for dragging this on. I'm sorry to be this harsh but thats how it is. And this is why alot of artists dont do trades anymore, unless it is with a close friend or a subject that severely piques their interest. And alot of the time, the trades images are also used for prints for the artists own benefit.
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 10:52 pm (UTC)
and like I said, it was commissions and GIFTS that I saw him do that made me ask him. Gifts had no money or people giving anything to him.

But for me I do it by what's given first. I generally work very fast so it doesn't matter for me (except lately I can't do computer finished art the way I used to cause my computer is acting up and won't open large files.)

but yeah, this is artists beware no? Isn't the point to make dealings like this noted? It never said commission specific. And likewise, since you like doing commissions put it this way.

I waste time and mentality on trades as well. Think of it like a sims game, you only have so much 'fun' meter before it runs out. IF someone's going to screw me over on a trade that means I wasted that 'fun' meter instead of saving it for only a commission . I don't see why everyone's trying to badger the difference between 'commission vs trade' when in the end it's still their own credibility, no?
suavis_venenum
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:22 pm (UTC)
Well this is not really for this community I also can say that - and well.. read the whole story but still can't give any of you.

I own trades, I accepted them when I was in school and had time to art every time even in school, but than life changed job appeared and I own trades from years before as well.
I can't do much, commissions in priority - but yes I guess at least your partner should note you or inform you that s/he is late because of rl or wait inspiration still...

Also agree read in the comments somewhere crying because of the quality is a bit... disappointing. S/he accepted the trade and you can't do always a masterpiece that part is simple not fair.

But not agree the drama around it, putting it in journal not fair from your side, you might be disappointed the way s/he handled you but the same from her/his side with putting it into publical and spread hatred that way.

I miss the right communication abilities from both side, all I see is shit throuhging on each other. Which is wrong.

I hope there will be something to deal both of you with it as soon as possible.
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry, I couldn't understand a lot of that c.c
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hollowzero
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:22 pm (UTC)
I don't know why everyone here is giving you a hard time about this.

If anything, it proves Scesmoon isn't someone to accept commissions from, in my opinion. Getting THAT uptight about a sketch not being to his (I assume it's male) specifications...for an art trade?

I have never seen anyone redline an art trade.

It's ironic people here said "trading is for fun" which lets this guy off the handle in their eyes, but he obviously was taking it very seriously. Almost like..a commission, with art as payment, as Azure here was trying to describe. It's ridiculous, and so is Scesmoon.

By the way, speaking as someone who's gotten burned 5 times in the past with trades, if you want one hit me up on Deviantart or such. I'll draw first. It makes me sick seeing artists treat each other like this cause ONOES MY FOUR ARMED THING GROPING ITSELF ISN'T PERFECT.
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:56 pm (UTC)
I like being precise in making sure I do what someone asks for in a drawing. I don't start inking unless I get their go ahead to. Ask anyone who's commissioned me, and with this would be no different.

Yeah, he redlined it cause after my first draft he told me I had to do something to fix the muschrooms on the shoulders and when I didn't do it correctly in the cleaner draft, he redlined it so then I did a third draft and said it was fine.
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celestinaketzia
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC)
Ok, so his pettyness about the trade itself is very off putting. If were dealing with him, I would have just called it a loss. It happens. Do I think this is worth an a_b post? Not really.

Your attitude to him isn't any better. You are going ballistic on the a_b people here and basically aren't listening to anything we say. What's the point of posting here?

None the less, I don't think based on this alone that this guy is a bad commissioner. I've got a huge comic request pending for the past two years for this one guy. He commissioned me a week ago for a similar comic and I finished it in two days. (I'm embarrassed to admit that, actually.) So yeah, bad with trades =/= bad with commissions.
azuredoragon
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC)
Now that's the first legitimate argument I've seen against it.
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thaily
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:30 pm (UTC)
Dear everyone,

Not everyone is or wants to be on FapAffinity, please provide links that are available to everyone if you want to make a point.

Personally I can't judge on whether she's being nitpicky or not, because I can't see anything.
thaily
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:36 pm (UTC)
As for the people wanking on whether or not this is on topic; The mod has seen and approved this post so the discussion is moot. That said, trading goods for goods is a business transaction. Also, every person who's stiffed me on an art trade also stiffed customers that paid with money.

It's not a matter of how people pay for the art, it's about the fact that someone who willingly entered a business transaction and doesn't live up to their end of the bargain.

Sure trades are supposed to be fun-time things, but they're not very fun when you draw art for people and they never give you anything back, now is it?!
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alcyione
Mar. 27th, 2009 11:54 pm (UTC)
I love it when people drag their furry drama into this community.

The fact that you've posted the part in your chat logs - where you threaten to post this guy to A_B - simply proves your vendetta! This post is not to warn others nor to ask advice; it is meant to hurt the other person involved.

Amazing how revenge tactics usually backfire, ne?
azuredoragon
Mar. 28th, 2009 12:07 am (UTC)
I never denied that, now did I? He gave his own path into it when he started making shit up to back out of it. Even before I posted the 'threat' here you can tell he wasn't going to do it.

oh, and aren't you a furry? It's drama, great to see you classify it as furry drama when it's just drama amongst two furries, nothing significantly different than a lot of the other things that get posted here.
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mialattia
Mar. 28th, 2009 12:13 am (UTC)
Personally I think it's silly that he refuses to do his half just because he's being snarky about quality. I don't see much difference in quality at all in those two pieces (the one he wanted it like and the one you did) so he should suck it up and do his half.
azuredoragon
Mar. 28th, 2009 12:29 am (UTC)
It's not just that as well, it's also how he's trying to back out of it.

He claims I didn't fix it, which I did when he asked me to.
He claims I outed him, I did not.
He claims I was being the mean one first, I'm fairly sure everyone can see who was being elitist with no cause from that.
(Deleted comment)
lilenth
Mar. 28th, 2009 01:38 pm (UTC)

IAWTC
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Mar. 28th, 2009 06:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stormslegacy - Mar. 28th, 2009 06:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - raeraesama - Apr. 1st, 2009 02:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
minimalismo
Mar. 29th, 2009 03:51 pm (UTC)
This is a good example of why artists should only trade work that is finished. None of this "gift art" stuff. Bah!
stormslegacy
Mar. 29th, 2009 05:41 pm (UTC)
But the point of most art trades is to have someone else draw your character; your suggestion defeats the purpose...
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