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No Edits/No refunds

Hello-hello! Long time lurker, first time joining/posting!
I recently commissioned an artist for an icon that is a super cute 'chibi' style and after a brief delay where they very maturely kept everyone updated I finally received it to find that it was off a bit color wise.
The artist themselves works in a fairly pastel style so I expected some muting but not to the severity I got.
They explained they had a new computer that wouldn't color pick(?) and had to eyeball the colors.
The icon aside from the coloring is fine, very cute.
However they asked what I thought or if I was happy with it and despite them having a no refund/edit clause I tossed them a message regarding the color issue.
I saw the no refund/no edits before I commissioned but the icons we're simple enough and cheap enough I felt it worth the risk.
The artist responded to my first message reaffirming the no edits, brought up their old ToS that use to say the colors would vary and that was that.
(I also asked about a smaller detail on the character but I do agree with them it was too small to get across on such a small icon)
I messaged again expressing confusion on why they asked my opinion anyways as well as pointing out their old ToS has nothing to do with this as it wasn't the ToS I agreed to. At this point I was fine with it tbh, cut my losses and go.

Then next reply they insulted me. Got very aggressive and rude out of nowhere. So I told them the conversation was over, I did not tolerate rudeness and we could continue the discussion in PayPal's dispute window.

Their last reply was to tell me they would take this issue publically.
I received a refund shortly after.

I'm wondering what to do now, they have a big following and while I do not regret putting a foot down I do not want to to deal with the backlash of whiteknights pouring down on me over what I assume will be a nasty and rude call-out post. Should I wait to see if this is just a thinly veiled threat? Inform then I will make a beware if they go through with their call-out post? Ignore it for now???
Their ToS is actually ridiculous and their stances on character sales and adopts are very...shaddy too?
I admit this is on me for taking the risk and not researching them further but the fact they got so hostile out of nowhere is my issue now.

(Forgive any errors, I'm on mobile!)

Edit: given they made a rude beware of their own to share our private conversations I will be taking the advice to post my own beware here. Thank you all for the advice!

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Comments

( 18 comments — Leave a comment )
dragontripmon
Oct. 30th, 2018 07:20 pm (UTC)
I would post a beware in this case considering this sounds like a threat and and artist response to you like that. I have a bad feeling with an artist with that kind of following would not end well at all if they're going to resort to taking this issue publicly.

Glad you put your foot down over this considering their TOS.
(Deleted comment)
dragontripmon
Oct. 30th, 2018 08:55 pm (UTC)
And wow after seeing that edit from your page and they would do that glad your making your own beware on them.
xproperpenguinx
Oct. 31st, 2018 02:09 pm (UTC)
Lies.
oceandezignz
Oct. 31st, 2018 02:24 pm (UTC)
MOD COMMENT
"Lies" is not a productive conversation. This is also an advice post so the artist mentioned is anonymous to the community.

Coming into this post to defend them is unnecessary as their is no beware here.

I'm freezing this.

Do not continue.
lunahasawa996
Oct. 30th, 2018 08:16 pm (UTC)
I had a similar issue with a user who has very poor worth ethics and trats anyone who obposesses them or dossnt agree like garbage. They too posted a counter beware against me, filled it with excessive lies, and due to their large following i was harassed by several white knights. The reason? I "annoyed them" for asking where my art was when they kept not providing after their given deadline saying their harassment was justified because thet had 4k+ followers compared to my 200+ and "not to f!@# woth higher tier artists". This artist even went as far as to share personal information on facebook in their beeare there.

It took the threat of legal action for breaking state confidentiality laws to make them stop and remove their facebook post after dealing with them for 3+ months. Since then I have still seen them treat anyone who becomes their new target or just gets under their skin horribly.

I wiuld post a beware about this person then avoid them like the plague after. Any harassment from others report if you can and avpid them as well. If they are anything like what i went throigh, you could end up with some 20+ white knights to add to a block list who are too blind to see their princess/prince is not all sparkles and rainbows.
haru_totetsu
Oct. 30th, 2018 08:30 pm (UTC)
Yeah I'll echo what's already been said really. Post your own Beware on them.

Had to deal with an artist sicking their white nights on me, via Tumblr. They took a screen shot of a disagreement I had with them, and posted it out of context on Tumblr which resulted in me getting a LOT of anonymous hate messages. So while it's discouraged be prepared to deal with a few messages being hurled your way.

The only other advice I'd give is see where they post their beware on you. Depending on who manages such communities you might be able to get them to take it down for you, by showing them the evidence you have for your own beware on the artist in question. Other than that don't get to involved with them. If they out you on a site like Fur Affinity, then they'd be breaking the ToS and thus you could report them. But other than that your hands are tied.

Depending on how you got your refund, you might want to keep an eye on your PayPal account, since if they sent you the money in the standard manner they could issue their own charge-back and get your account locked, so be sure to keep all the evidence you have on hand until they can't do that anymore. Otherwise count yourself lucky they sent you your money back.
(Screened comment)
(Screened comment)
whoop_zi
Oct. 30th, 2018 10:22 pm (UTC)
mod comment
Howdy. Advice posts are to remain anonymous, so this comment will be screened. You and the mods will still be able to see your comment so please do not delete it.

If you'd like to speak with OP on this matter, we encourage you to do so privately.

Edited at 2018-10-30 10:22 pm (UTC)
Alina Chuu
Oct. 31st, 2018 01:14 pm (UTC)
Yeaaah no.
I saw both sides of what has been said, and I'm sorry to tell you, the one who acted the most at fault was not the artist, but definitely you. You did know said artist do not do refunds and yet you tried to ask for one and looking at the screenshot the artist provided, they did NOT insult you. It was morally wrong for you to even think about making a charge back because you didn't liked the final art, in WHICH it was still pretty similar and goes into the artist style. They did their job and tried to do what you wanted, don't go disrespect them.

Grow up and move on.
haru_totetsu
Oct. 31st, 2018 01:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Yeaaah no.
After getting to see the artists side, I have to agree.

While there may be issue in the legality about a "no refund" policy, the fact is the commissioner acknowledged and agreed to said terms before the product was made. Not to mention it might not be as simple to just edit that style of commission, thus meaning they'd have to start from scratch.

I would have said something sooner after seeing the artists side, but wasn't sure how to articulate it.
ravensmoon666
Oct. 31st, 2018 08:51 pm (UTC)
I was going to agree with you to go ahead and make a beware and discuss why "No Refunds" clause is not legal and holds no ground but after actually seeing the icon, it doesn't even look that different from your character? It's a little saturated, yes but they had it written in their TOS that it would come out more pastel as that is their style.

https://i.gyazo.com/02297adbc300f551988b5427b339cd40.png This is the colours side by side (Just little circles with the colours, it doesn't actually show any art or reveal who the artist is)

and yours are on the left while theirs is on the right and like I said, you had seen their style and knew how it would be, not to mention how tiny they are and how hard it would be to fit in all the details. I somewhat don't blame them for getting upset over it.
feignperfection
Nov. 1st, 2018 12:11 am (UTC)
I don't know the whole story here because I only have what's in front of me on LJ, but there's a difference between going pastel on the actual colors you've been given to work with and taking pastels off of colors that you've eyeballed. Your sample very clearly shows colors that aren't variants of each other, but completely different in warmth.

Based on the information that's available here, the artist didn't actually color pick the colors off of the ref sheet on a digital commission, but eyeballed them. And a reference is made to a TOS regarding color variance, but it's not the TOS that the commissioner agreed to. If that information about color variance isn't in the TOS that the commissioner agreed to, they do have some justification in being upset. I do believe, though, that based on their own words, the commissioner was overly aggressive in discussing the situation with the artist.
tythius
Nov. 1st, 2018 01:12 am (UTC)
I have to agree here. I read the artist's side before this advice post and while I don't advocate demanding a refund after the product is delivered unless it's unreasonably bad, the point is that the client did find these differences in color troublesome enough to make a point about it, and there was no clause in the TOS the customer received at the time of purchase about color variances.

Sure, they agreed to "no refund" (arguably) and "no edits" but they certainly didn't agree to "eyeball the color" levels of variances, which then becomes a problem. So what's to be done in a scenario like this?

I see three general veins of solutions, one of which the artist already followed:

1. Refund the product. (The artist's side mentions the client has already been refunded.) And never work with this client again. Public or personal blacklist, whatever.
2. Edit the product (and maybe charge a bit extra for editing, depending on how that agreement might have worked out). And never work with this client again. Public or personal blacklist, whatever.
3. Refuse both refund and edits and deal with a potential chargeback or a poor review. And never work with this client again. Public or personal blacklist, whatever.

The artist's call out does admit they eyeballed the colors, too, so the problem is really that the artist doesn't think the differences are a big deal, but the client does and when it comes to the color scheme of your personal OC, I think there's some justification in being upset that the artist finished the piece based off "eyeball" colors (without mentioning it in the TOS or through communications until they delivered the final product) rather than the direct colors on the reference.

In the bigger picture, it's a tiny icon, sure, but different people have varying degrees of tolerances for these sorts of details.

That's not an excuse for the commissioner being rude and escalating the issue to a PayPal chargeback threat, of course, which is excessive in context, but if you pare away the emotional back-and-forth, it's technically a case of an incorrect product being delivered, akin to ordering a beige sweater and getting a sand-colored one instead. Maybe that's minor, maybe it's not, but who gets to decide if that difference is a problem?

Personally, I'd say it's the person paying for the product.

Edited at 2018-11-01 01:32 am (UTC)
ravensmoon666
Nov. 1st, 2018 01:33 pm (UTC)
Yeah, you're right. Looking back I have had people make my characters a different colour before (like the purple on the girl in my icon being pink) and it upset me so I should have put myself in their shoes.

I do wonder how the artist couldn't colour drop on their new computer though? I've never known an art program to not have colour dropping capabilities and as a "small" artist myself if I had to I would use a different program or even a website to drop the colours. That does seem odd to me.
tythius
Nov. 1st, 2018 06:23 pm (UTC)
Before I found this advice post, I had actually discussed it with the artist on the call-out post's comment section, trying to point out that despite everything else, the problem was still purely incorrect colors and that the customer being rude or jumping the gun on threatening a PayPal chargeback doesn't invalidate the original issue they had, which was that the colors were incorrect, even if the artist and their following insisted that it was fine.

It's not anyone else's place to tell a customer how to feel about the colors on their own character if the artist didn't color pick them directly and didn't approximate well, in my opinion.

They assured me that even if they had been using their old program and computer, the colors would be the same...so that's to say, they would still have eyeballed the colors and pulled the pastels from the approximations instead of color picking.

I have no idea what to make of this, to be honest, that sort of insistence that nothing would have changed with a color picker, but the swatches you took are clearly different colors, pastel or not.

Regardless, I'm of the opinion that is somewhat beware worthy. I certainly wouldn't comm an artist who was perfectly fine with only approximating the colors on my character rather than doing it exactly and never informed me of this on purchase. And then to finalize the product and apply the "no edit" clause even when the customer sees errors (that were not due to the customer's lack of reference or vagueness) in the final product is an interesting choice.

I believe you've seen the original call out, and my handle is the same there as it is here, so feel free to scroll down and judge the artist's justification for yourself. I sort of gave up after the second response.

Edited at 2018-11-01 06:23 pm (UTC)
ravensmoon666
Nov. 1st, 2018 10:40 pm (UTC)
I said I agreed with you after you replied to me? I was just rambling about an art program not having a colour dropper so it made me think she had been lying and just wanted to do the colours she wants.
tythius
Nov. 1st, 2018 10:52 pm (UTC)
Oh, no, sorry to be unclear, I wasn’t arguing with you I was just presenting what the artist claimed regarding the color variances but I didn’t want to be vague about how I got that information or what I could read into it.

Edited at 2018-11-01 10:55 pm (UTC)
sheepilyy
Nov. 2nd, 2018 06:00 am (UTC)
The issue I am having here is the "no edits" policy. I've worked with artist who have a "no edits policy," even if they don't follow the references correctly. That is just how they want to work, and as a client I should be aware of this when I am commissioning them. I know when I work with artist with these types of rules I try to be VERY clear up front what is important to me (color dropping is for me and following the reference EXACTLY. I am a VERY picky client). If there is an issue I offer to compensate them if I need changes (I even budget this into commissioning them).

Many artist work this way (no edits). I don't agree with the policy (which is why I don't use it in my own practice) but I have to be aware as a client that that is the way someone wants to work. If I don't like an artist's policy then I don't have to commission them. I can't comment on the no refunds policy (the statement is vague) but it appears they completed the work and their no refund policy could mean "no refunds [after work is completed]" even if it is not explicitly stated. I think the no refunds is really the secondary issue here.


This doesn't feel beware worthy, and I think it makes more of a comment about you as a commissioner asking for a refund or edits when the terms you agreed to said no edits. It doesn't matter if they mentioned muting the colors or not. No edits means no edits. Period.
( 18 comments — Leave a comment )

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