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unpaid reference sheet

WHO: Rayd / Hytyle / Aprilycan

WHERE: fur affinity

WHAT: reference sheet

WHEN: July 21 to yesterday morning

EXPLAIN: user posted to FA forums in search of an artist for making a reference sheet. we agreed that I would be paid 60 during the process and remaining 40 upon completion. since being around 60% of the way through, I have been asking for partial payment; user has in response, acted like a victim by me asking for payment, suddenly reversing the affirming that my style works for them, that they like what I'm making, and claiming they hate it and therefore don't need to pay me. they have even said i'm witch hunting them, which is hilarious! since I've given up being paid the rent money i still need and have moved on to simply wanting to warn other people that this person is insincere and dishonest in their dealings.



at first it seemed like a good fit.
I gave them a choice of pose and got started.
I asked them for feedback about the quality of linework and style.
I started in on color and texture, adjusting when they had feedback, but the word "perfect" was thrown around a lot.
Created multiple versions for comparison and customer design choice.
Started in on the extra offers I included - poses with his outfit, offers to illustrate him using magic. Things people usually don't include in one reference sheet package.
Around this time I started asking for payment and realized they most likely weren't planning on paying me.
making a personal post to vent about what happened, they comment to harass me, while blocking me, meaning I technically can't reply to their weird victim posing.

all said, I think some people are just best avoided at times. I don't know what's going on with this person, but I'd glad a platform exists to warn fellow artists. am I sad? yes. can I pay the rent without this income? not yet. am I going to waste my time harassing this person like they're harassing me? definitely not. but now I know I can check for names here if someone I'm working for seems fishy, and hope everyone stays safe out there.
Artist's beware has moved!
Do NOT repost your old bewares. They are being archived.
https://artistsbeware.info/

Comments

hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 07:21 am (UTC)
Since about 2 hours ago, I had already owned up for my actions, which can be found here. I plan on paying $30-$60 without taking the art dependent on what me and the artist agree on and what we believe is fair whenever we happen to contact each other. The harassment wasn't about the AB post by the way, moreso how he's been continuously making posts publicly calling me out and sending his friends my way on FA to insult me. This is and has been a very stressful situation for me, and I want to be done with it. Not to make this a point or anything, but I have heart palpitations whenever I even think about all of this, so I'm all for resolving it as quickly as possible.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/being-witchhunted-by-an-artist-advice.1650285/page-2#post-6062876



Edited at 2018-08-25 07:22 am (UTC)
radiomutt
Aug. 25th, 2018 08:21 am (UTC)
Hey. Buddy. I have extreme anxiety, but even without that I can imagine how terrifying and upsetting it is to have a bunch of people on the internet dogpiling you and telling you You Did Wrong, so I'm fully sympathetic to the fact that you may have lashed out and reacted defensively out of panic and anxiety. I don't blame you for that. In fact, your claim that you were willing to be open to the possibility you were wrong made me honestly hope you'd walk away from this post, amicably and having learnt a lesson about being up front in the future and paying what is due. I was honestly rooting for you.

But you really haven't done any favours for yourself with each new update. I mean, it's nice you're going to pay the artist when you can, but the way you've been addressing the subject has been, um. Questionable? By your own words, from a link you posted so I'm taking it as something you're happy being part of the conversation:
"It's not in my favor to pay now because not only will people stay angry with me"
You have expressed, multiple times, that the only reason you would pay is to make people stop criticising you, not because you honestly understand and believe that the artist deserves to be paid for the cost of time and work done. You've also put all the blame on the artist's shoulders, claiming you would have been happy to pay them/work something out but they were the one to ruin it for "escalating" to making public bewares. Just out of curiosity, how were you planning to work things out when you had blocked them? Discussion over carrier pigeon? What? You even end up asking if anyone can give you their contact information to work it out, so by your own admission you have no way of contacting the artist but on the other hand you would have been more than happy to work something out? What? What?

Honestly I'm still rooting for you in the sense that I hope you figure out a payment plan with the OP, give them their due, and walk away from this having grown and learned a hard lesson. The happiest end to this scenario is that you take it as a learning opportunity and avoid this in the future, and I really hope for that! I hope for all the best for you. But here's the main lesson I think you need to learn:

You have a problem with honesty. You were dishonest with the artist about your comfort with the commission. You are fully within your rights to cancel the commission if you're not happy with it, but you still need to pay the artist for work completed. You also were dishonest about representing the situation in the thread, insisting that you were wholly willing to work things out except that you left the artist with absolutely no avenue to do so because you blocked communications with them. These concepts are mutually exclusive. You cannot talk to someone you have blocked.

Also while it's nice that the artist is getting their money hopefully, I do feel a little uncomfortable it's for the wrong reasons but we're living in a cynical age where "take what I can get" is standard so okay. I'll believe it when I see it either way.

And speaking of blocking: if people are harassing you on FA (Your quote: "I was genuinely curious how to stop being harassed on the main site"), block and report them. I cannot believe you're so willing to block an artist to avoid paying them, but won't block people harassing you lol.

Edit: formatting oopsie.

Edited at 2018-08-25 08:22 am (UTC)
lunahasawa996
Aug. 25th, 2018 08:48 am (UTC)
I find it intetesting also regarding this blocking the artist but not the harrassers. The least they could do if these claims are true (because i see no proof) is report and block them also?

It seems that this block was a purposeful evasion of taking responsibility for their actions and got overly defensive about being confronted to pay up that they pulled the "harassment" card when really, the poor artist just wanted to get paid for their hard work.
hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 08:54 am (UTC)
I spent a couple hours making that post and I can see now that I do contradict myself a lot in my words. I just wanted it to be a done and done post after awhile and It must have completely passed me. The truth is that I'm still afraid about going about this, but I do know that its the right thing to do as a customer and as a person at this point. Me and the artist got along pretty well together, and I'm not so sure if that'll be apparent again after this is finished, but I do care about whether he gets anything beneficial out of this, as Its deserved for having to go to these lengths to get paid. "People" in this case included kaivey and everyone else as a collective.

I havent blocked him over all platforms, just instant messagers. Though I've forgotton both of his names for each, so I'll be idling until he or someone else is able to get that information to me.

And I did block the people who sent me notes, I was just wanting to avoid being met with more from other people who've read the same stuff.

Also, Thank you. You have no idea how great it feels to hear that. After all of this, Its great to finally be reassured one way or another.

Edited at 2018-08-25 08:54 am (UTC)
lunahasawa996
Aug. 25th, 2018 08:43 am (UTC)
$30-60? So now youre trying to sell the artist short. You agreed on $60, and frankly after this i hope they dont agree on a payment plan with you because then they might get scammed again or you might come up with anpther reason not to hand pver the cash agreed upon. Pay what you agreed on and then move on with it. Stop playing the victim card here trying to make us all sympathetic towads you. You're not the only one who has anxiety and palpitations over stuff. Om stressed out to high heaven having left my grandfather alone for 3 days during a big move worried about him, all while having a queue to finish, but you dont see me playing the pitty party card all over the place to get pats on the back and such as an excuse to put off doing my end of the deal for longer. I acrually offered to even do refunds for those who didn't want to wait.

Plus with your claims of the artists friends doing x, y, z and the kitchen sink you keep failing to provide any substancial evidence of screen shots to back it up.

You made a wrong doing, and while you owned up to it. Own up to the agreement you first made to begin eith, and give the person their money for their time. Dont try to make them settle for less than what was agreed upon.
hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 09:06 am (UTC)
The only reason I mentioned the range as opposed to just 60 is because several people in the thread have suggested that I pay half of 60 since we were halfway done with the first sheet. I'm not attempting to sell the artist short, I'm just laying out all of the options based on what everyone else has said.

Respectfully speaking I think some of what you're saying is a little extra. I plan on paying the artist, and you're still trying to say I'm fishing for sympathy? I'm explaining that the situation was stressful, so everything that was said was relevant to mention. I even explained on the FAF post that I'm looking to gain people's trust through doing or saying anything, not for free.

I'm looking to resolve the issue, Please stop making it difficult for me and for everyone else who wants to be done with it.

Edited at 2018-08-25 09:07 am (UTC)
lunahasawa996
Aug. 25th, 2018 09:17 am (UTC)
You have been told multiple times in the comments here that clearly the art is by no means "half done" it looks more like 75-80% done and that should mean full $60 payment. Yet you keep saying anything and everything to insisit that it isn't what it clearly is. Showing you are ignoring what people have been saying. Everyone you've gone to has been saying to jist pay the full $60 if you really want to be done with it.

Had this person finished all the coloring for the flats, the image by that point would be considered pretty muxh near finished (like 90-95%) as any shading takes little to no time after that stage if done in a time efficient way. If they actually got to that point you'd be looking at paying the full $100 here for the finished art.

Also, you shouldnt be reying on other people to contact you about this person for yoj. They are not involved and shouldnt have to cover your lost ties. Given the number of excuses you've given lately, its hard to find your words on having forgotten this artists contacts believable. Find all the places you fomerly talked on and go from there, dont wait for someone else to come along because that only prolongs the arrist not getting paid. Plus it's a common "if i dont do this they will forget eventually" tactic.

Edit: Your comment telling me to stop makkng tbis difficult on you just shows me you can't take critisicism and being told you're in the wrong and get overly defensive. Plus unless this gets resolved, all those "everyone else" people wont really get to be "done with it" as AB often likes updates on these matters until thet are resolved to keep artists aware on if said AB has changed or is still being the same way. Only once this matter is resolved will it be moved to the "resolved" tag. On top of that the artist alsk has every right to post follow ups on if you do anything like this again and break anotver agreement if you come to one. So there is no telling where the end is at this point.

Edited at 2018-08-25 09:22 am (UTC)
hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 09:26 am (UTC)
I'm not staying up all night to dig for the names, and if I happen to wake up and still not have them, then I'll go looking. If you havent already noticed, I'm a bit too involved in this to just hope that people will forget, that's ridiculous.

I was already leaning towards 60 in the first place since the first sheet is nearly done, and thats when we agreed was when the 60 would be paid. It was one sheet of a 3 sheet deal, and the 40 was going to be paid after all 3.

Again. You're expecting things to happen VERY fast. Check in on this post if you want to. I'm not going to go through all this trouble to apologize publicly if I'm still not going to pay.
celestinaketzia
Aug. 25th, 2018 04:10 pm (UTC)
Heyo.

You can send OP a message through Livejournal.
https://drowninginbooks.livejournal.com/profile

Click on "send message" near the top.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4utk0k8u28wga1/drowninginbooks_-_Profile_-_2018-08-25_11.09.04.png?dl=0

They also should have this post on follow automatically, unless they opted to turn it off. But livejournal does email people when they receive messages.
drowninginbooks
Aug. 25th, 2018 04:27 pm (UTC)
I am here.

discord, telegram, FA, fa forums, are all available when calm is restored, but currently, i am still blocked and un paid.

i know anxiety can be all consuming at times. sometimes people need a day to calm down. we have a few more days until next month.

it would really help our family out to have some of the money we planned to have .

i am really, honestly shocked at the amount of care. love and attention. that people have put in to helping communications in this transaction.

I did not know about this community self defense / reality check network existing
until community came to help make sure we can pay rent and help communicate on my behalf.

where my brain had left things, was blaming only myself and feeling powerless and just accepting that this work is a gamble, at times.

thank you to online artists community.
hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 06:39 pm (UTC)
I'll see if I can find you on FAF, then we can talk about payment either there, or you can send me your Discord/Telegram if you prefer an instant messager so that I can unblock you on those.


EDIT: It seems you may have blocked me as well on FAF...I'm going to try FA now.

Edited at 2018-08-25 06:49 pm (UTC)
lunahasawa996
Aug. 25th, 2018 07:53 pm (UTC)
I wish to contact you privately. Where is a good place to do so?

Also ypu are bery welcome for the help. Any tome someone is wronged im the art world fellpw artists most always help to get it resolved. Now if we could just get the AB to copperate. All they really have to do is unblock you from the main platform they blocked you on and message you. I domt know why that seems to be so difficult for them.
hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 08:35 pm (UTC)
Contacted them already by the way. The way you're going about this is very odd, as you're still acting as if I'm not trying to fix things, saying that I'm not cooperating. It's strange.
lunahasawa996
Aug. 25th, 2018 09:54 pm (UTC)
Well goven the OP srated you still had them blpcked i found it odd you didnt just unblock them when you decided to get back into contact right off the bat.

And seeing as you contacted them, I hope then that the OP will post an update regarding the matter ans things get resolved.
whoop_zi
Aug. 25th, 2018 10:29 pm (UTC)
mod comment
I'm going to go ahead and freeze this as it's starting to go in circles. If two you wish to continue this discussion via PMs, you're welcome to do so.

Edited at 2018-08-25 10:29 pm (UTC)

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