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unpaid reference sheet

WHO: Rayd / Hytyle / Aprilycan

WHERE: fur affinity

WHAT: reference sheet

WHEN: July 21 to yesterday morning

EXPLAIN: user posted to FA forums in search of an artist for making a reference sheet. we agreed that I would be paid 60 during the process and remaining 40 upon completion. since being around 60% of the way through, I have been asking for partial payment; user has in response, acted like a victim by me asking for payment, suddenly reversing the affirming that my style works for them, that they like what I'm making, and claiming they hate it and therefore don't need to pay me. they have even said i'm witch hunting them, which is hilarious! since I've given up being paid the rent money i still need and have moved on to simply wanting to warn other people that this person is insincere and dishonest in their dealings.



at first it seemed like a good fit.
I gave them a choice of pose and got started.
I asked them for feedback about the quality of linework and style.
I started in on color and texture, adjusting when they had feedback, but the word "perfect" was thrown around a lot.
Created multiple versions for comparison and customer design choice.
Started in on the extra offers I included - poses with his outfit, offers to illustrate him using magic. Things people usually don't include in one reference sheet package.
Around this time I started asking for payment and realized they most likely weren't planning on paying me.
making a personal post to vent about what happened, they comment to harass me, while blocking me, meaning I technically can't reply to their weird victim posing.

all said, I think some people are just best avoided at times. I don't know what's going on with this person, but I'd glad a platform exists to warn fellow artists. am I sad? yes. can I pay the rent without this income? not yet. am I going to waste my time harassing this person like they're harassing me? definitely not. but now I know I can check for names here if someone I'm working for seems fishy, and hope everyone stays safe out there.
Artist's beware has moved!
Do NOT repost your old bewares. They are being archived.
https://artistsbeware.info/

Comments

hytyle
Aug. 24th, 2018 03:19 am (UTC)
With all due respect to everyone involved, I wasn't too keen on the idea of paying someone I made very clear to what he made wasn't what I wanted. I could understand if I was just dissatisfied with the piece, but It was quite literally a case of a misleading product.

Here's the original hiring post, where you can see in full detail exactly everything I wanted, and made very sure to explain everything down to the last wire. - http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/100-usd-budget-reference-sheet.1649176/#post-6007191

The artist gifted me this before making his offer, and had no other examples to show me of past canine work, but because of me liking the sketches, I had faith that he was able to deliver me the same sort of style. - http://forums.furaffinity.net/attachments/rayd-jpg.35967/

Now, if you look at the finished product, you can see that It's entirely different, and you can understand why I might have been disappointed. I didn't want to spend my budget on something I didn't even want in the first place. I'm sorry to the artist, but I made sure to everyone that sent me an offer what I did and didn't want, and I feel as if I shouldn't be accountable for that, and I shouldn't be obligated to pay even though I didn't even want what they made in the first place. I hired him because I really liked the sketches he made for me, and I thought what he made later on was misleading from the sketches.

I explained that I wasn't interested in continuing the project, and I did this during the sketching phase, and he took it the wrong way. I truly don't believe I should be guilty for this, especially since I didn't exploit him in any way. I thought I was being considerate for backing out as soon as I did, and would see why it would be a problem if I did this later or when the piece was done.

I really feel that if I genuinely felt I was being met with a misleading product, and made sure to back out during the early stages, that I shouldn't be held accountable.

Edited at 2018-08-24 03:20 am (UTC)
drowninginbooks
Aug. 24th, 2018 06:17 am (UTC)
I wish i could get paid but, I am posting here to inform other artists and give fair warning. My immediate take away was never again to work without at least something up front. thanks for the feedback, everyone.

If there's a way repost one full months worth of back and forth on discord more easily than uploading screen caps, I'd be willing to share, but I don't feel a need to waste time "proving" my own experience. for a month of art work I was actively checking in and receiving nothing except positive feedback and specific edits which were immediately made.

I have to use the time I have now to make rent. Information distributed, so artists can know.
celestinaketzia
Aug. 24th, 2018 10:35 am (UTC)
Adding more screencaps of the discord convos would strengthen your beware overall. Especially if it shows you kept getting positive feedback through the process.
hytyle
Aug. 24th, 2018 06:54 am (UTC)
Sorry if I'm dragging, but I thought I'd also add this tid-bit.

I'm a little too nice for my own good, and become pressured to give a positive answer whenever asked for an opinion on a friend's creation. I know this is a bad habit and I take full responsibility for wasting the artist's time.

This inevitably more often than not carries over into my commissions, and I have had pieces (that were paid for) done for me that I was dissatisfied with, but have never said anything out of fear for the artist taking it the wrong way. Over time I wasn't sure if I could settle for the work that was made, given that I was spending a large amount of money doing so, and it happening to be my entire budget for the next week or so. So, that's when I backed out, and I was fearing for this exact thing happening, but I would not have done it if I thought it was wrong of me to do so or if we were too deep into the process.

Should I have been honest about my opinions from the start? Definitely, and I'll be sure to be more honest in the future to avoid issues like this. I also believe that if I had not said I couldn't pay (again, out of fear) and blocking him instead of being honest, that he would have been more lenient of handling this more peacefully, so I also take responsibility for that as well. Still, I do not believe I should be obligated to finish this project for the fact that I was mislead, accidental or not, and that I backed out as soon as I did. I'm firm in my belief that I shouldn't have to pay for a product if It's not what I asked for.


However I'm very open to the possibility that I may be in the wrong and that there's something I'm not taking into account, and will be monitoring this post for enlightenment.

Edited at 2018-08-24 08:18 am (UTC)
celestinaketzia
Aug. 24th, 2018 10:33 am (UTC)
You are 100% in the wrong. A whole host of excuses why you didn't stop him sooner when you were dissatisfied doesn't negate the fact that you owe for work done. Your response, as a client, solidifies that this is a beware well warranted.

Artists are not psychic, and waiting until colors are on to say you don't like something to avoid payment is theft of services.

Edit: And I also want to add on a few more points.

- As an artist I see little to no quality difference between the sketches and linework, so I'm not sure where you're saying there's a quality drop.

- If you intend to do speculative work (where payment is only rendered if the client likes it) with an artist you need to be 100% clear that is what you intend to do. There is a huge difference between speculative work as it's generally considered a scam, and a full blown commission.

- If you don't intend to do speculative work, then a better idea is to pay for commissions in each phase. Again, ensuring the artist knows this. That way if you aren't satisfied with the way a commission is shaping up, then you can stop it and have only paid up until where you stopped the process. Not liking a commission is not an excuse to bail on payment.

Edited at 2018-08-24 11:36 am (UTC)
fawkatronic
Aug. 24th, 2018 10:34 am (UTC)
I do not believe anyone is saying you have an obligation to finish the project with the artist, but you did take up a good chunk of the artist's time. And you should pay for the time you took from them, especially consider that based on what you wrote it seemed you let the work drag on for a while after you had decided you were not going to go through with the transaction.

Imagine if it was something more physical and tangible than art. If you hired someone to landscape your yard, and they showed up and worked for hours a day over multiple days. Do you think you could just cancel the contract with them before the yard was 100% done and expect to not pay them for the hours they already worked?

From screencaps it looks like the artist was well into colouring and had already lined multiple full bodies with clothes included. That is a lot of work. I don't know how much more was expected, but for a typical reference sheet this is beyond 50% done.
radiomutt
Aug. 24th, 2018 11:48 am (UTC)
You don't need to "finish the project". Literally nobody is demanding you do that.

You do need to pay the artist for work done. Plain and simple.

Also, this "exact thing" is probably happening because you dropped a rambling paragraph of text telling the artist that you were secretly unhappy with the work the whole time, telling them their quality of work was low, telling them you are just not going to pay them for the work done, and then literally blocking them before they ever had a chance to even discuss any of this with you on, according them, every platform of communication, only to then apparently unblock them long enough to accuse them of defaming you for literally explaining the literal things you literally did.

But okay. It's admirable that you're "open to the possibility" that you "may be in the wrong".

Take this as a chance to learn a lesson and walk away from this a better person. You know, after paying the artist for what work they've done.
epiceternity
Aug. 24th, 2018 01:03 pm (UTC)
If it's of help, a common way of resolving an issue of an artist doing the work but the client not feeling it's suitable is to agree to pay a percentage. Doing 50% is considered fair (i.e 50% of $60 = $30) though the exact percentage can be negotiable. Yes, receiving art that you feel you can't use sucks, but doing a load of work in good faith and then not getting paid also sucks.
epiceternity
Aug. 25th, 2018 02:21 pm (UTC)
* addition- I missed that it was a two stage payment for $100 total, not $60 so yeah, the 50% should have been $50 there.
cknsausage
Aug. 24th, 2018 04:44 pm (UTC)
"I shouldn't be obligated to pay even though I didn't even want what they made in the first place."

Yeah, you're obligated to pay for work already done. You led the artist to believe that you liked it and were happy with everything (AKA - making it seem as if you wanted it in the first place) - right up until the second they asked for payment. Then, suddenly, it's 'Oh no, I didn't like it'. That's believable...

"I'm a little too nice for my own good, and become pressured to give a positive answer whenever asked for an opinion on a friend's creation. I know this is a bad habit and I take full responsibility for wasting the artist's time."

There's nobody on earth that would think you're in the right because 'Oops, I accidentally said that it looked awesome, but I actually don't like it, and the artist should not only know but accept that, while also taking the hit for lost time/money'.

You owe the artist for whatever time of theirs you used up by 'being too polite' (in reality, wasting their time because they thought you liked where it was going).

Finishing the commission? Maybe not, if you're truly dissatisfied, and the artist can go on to do their own thing without wasting more time and you can save the rest of your cash.

You don't have a leg to stand on.

Edited at 2018-08-24 04:50 pm (UTC)
rendrassa
Aug. 24th, 2018 07:32 pm (UTC)
This wasn't gift art between friends, this was a business transaction. You should never feel that an artist (essentially your employee while you commission them) won't accept negative feedback when they ask for your honest opinion on the work done so far.

Also, you've gone back and forth between stating you had the money and didn't want to pay because of lack of quality and stating you literally didn't have the money. That alone is all the red flag I personally need. Your further attitude and responses here while trying to garner sympathy and support by stating incomplete facts to others just adds a few extra pounds of red icing on the cake.
lavenderpandy
Aug. 24th, 2018 08:53 pm (UTC)
I've had clients just like you before who were too afraid to speak out about their dissatisfaction. They waited till the very end to say that they're unhappy, but by that time nothing can be changed. I can somewhat sympathize with how you feel but if you plan to continue buy commissions, you seriously need to speak up. This is your money that you are paying so the product should make you happy.

You have no obligation to finish the commission but the artist needs to be compensated for their time.
Your behavior is unacceptable as well as your response to this situation. Blocking the artist directly after saying you won't be paying says poorly on you even if your anxieties kicked in. If you want to make this right, get back to the artist and discuss paying them for the work rendered.

I have no clue how you think you weren't wrong. You need to take another look at this situation again...seriously.

spartanwerewolf
Aug. 25th, 2018 07:33 am (UTC)
You hired the person. If their work wasn't what you were looking for, you should have told them during the sketch phase, or at least the lineart. you don't wait until it's coloured and they've started putting clothes on to back out.

I'm not buying that you were dissatisfied from the start, I think you intended to do this all along, and waited until you had most of a useable ref to bail.

If you're gonna cancel, you need to use those exact words. Don't mealy mouth it, straight up say,"I'm not interested in continuing this commission." And do it before the artist puts a load of work in.

You owe for what's been done so far. You need to cough up, because the artist put in work and should be compensated for it. Next time you commission someone, get examples of their finished work and judge based on that.

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