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unpaid reference sheet

WHO: Rayd / Hytyle / Aprilycan

WHERE: fur affinity

WHAT: reference sheet

WHEN: July 21 to yesterday morning

EXPLAIN: user posted to FA forums in search of an artist for making a reference sheet. we agreed that I would be paid 60 during the process and remaining 40 upon completion. since being around 60% of the way through, I have been asking for partial payment; user has in response, acted like a victim by me asking for payment, suddenly reversing the affirming that my style works for them, that they like what I'm making, and claiming they hate it and therefore don't need to pay me. they have even said i'm witch hunting them, which is hilarious! since I've given up being paid the rent money i still need and have moved on to simply wanting to warn other people that this person is insincere and dishonest in their dealings.



at first it seemed like a good fit.
I gave them a choice of pose and got started.
I asked them for feedback about the quality of linework and style.
I started in on color and texture, adjusting when they had feedback, but the word "perfect" was thrown around a lot.
Created multiple versions for comparison and customer design choice.
Started in on the extra offers I included - poses with his outfit, offers to illustrate him using magic. Things people usually don't include in one reference sheet package.
Around this time I started asking for payment and realized they most likely weren't planning on paying me.
making a personal post to vent about what happened, they comment to harass me, while blocking me, meaning I technically can't reply to their weird victim posing.

all said, I think some people are just best avoided at times. I don't know what's going on with this person, but I'd glad a platform exists to warn fellow artists. am I sad? yes. can I pay the rent without this income? not yet. am I going to waste my time harassing this person like they're harassing me? definitely not. but now I know I can check for names here if someone I'm working for seems fishy, and hope everyone stays safe out there.
Before commenting, please read our Community Rules.
Do not go after persons posted about here, by leaving comments on their art pages.
If you have been posted about, please read I've Been Posted on Artists_Beware, Now What?

Comments

( 81 comments — Leave a comment )
Page 1 of 2
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celestinaketzia
Aug. 23rd, 2018 08:55 pm (UTC)
Okay, so this is going to be one of those bewares where I personally feel both parties have made mistakes. Pardon this is going to be formatted for quick easy reading. (And also because I tend to be tl;dr.)

For the Client/ Hytyle-
- Please always voice any dissatisfaction very early on. Do not wait, because the artist is not a mind reader.
- The work isn't completed, but payment for work completed is owed to the artist.
- Please do not guilt the artist. This is a business transaction.

For the Artist-
- This is an important lesson in taking payment up front.
- If the client cancels you would owe them a refund for work not done. Currently you are owed for what is completed minus what has yet to be finished. Not the full $60.
- Please do not guilt clients. I hope that your father recovers quickly. Unfortunately, your personal matters aren't the client's. This is a business transaction.

Edited at 2018-08-23 08:56 pm (UTC)
gatekat
Aug. 23rd, 2018 10:03 pm (UTC)
According to the beware the artist is indeed owed $60.

I would be paid 60 during the process and remaining 40 upon completion.

It was a $100 commission.
$60 during the process -- this much is due.
$40 more when completed -- this is not due.
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Aug. 23rd, 2018 11:11 pm (UTC) - Expand
rendrassa
Aug. 24th, 2018 12:01 am (UTC)
I go up to a rough sketch to layout the basics and make sure the groundwork is acceptable before expecting payment, which I require before starting on the final lines. If you don't go with a full payment upfront, this method has suited me very well.

You can try to finish the ref with different patterns and a slight color shift and sell it as an adopt. Probably won't get the amount the ref commission would have brought you but still something for your efforts.
rendrassa
Aug. 24th, 2018 12:13 am (UTC)
Did some digging and saw they posted a journal telling their side but admitting they deleted all their chat history. (which with Discord isn't really possible unless you manually delete each message, I believe?)

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/8851314/

https://imgur.com/a/Bj3Z050 (In case of deletion.)

The client is claiming that the screenshots are being used "out of context" so if the OP wouldn't mind posting more of the chat, especially where the client approved more of things, I would be very appreciative.
celestinaketzia
Aug. 24th, 2018 12:14 am (UTC)
If you delete a whole user from your list, then you can delete the whole conversation. I've never tried to readd someone I've deleted, so I have no idea if readding them will bring back the chat history.
(no subject) - rendrassa - Aug. 24th, 2018 12:25 am (UTC) - Expand
hytyle
Aug. 24th, 2018 03:19 am (UTC)
With all due respect to everyone involved, I wasn't too keen on the idea of paying someone I made very clear to what he made wasn't what I wanted. I could understand if I was just dissatisfied with the piece, but It was quite literally a case of a misleading product.

Here's the original hiring post, where you can see in full detail exactly everything I wanted, and made very sure to explain everything down to the last wire. - http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/100-usd-budget-reference-sheet.1649176/#post-6007191

The artist gifted me this before making his offer, and had no other examples to show me of past canine work, but because of me liking the sketches, I had faith that he was able to deliver me the same sort of style. - http://forums.furaffinity.net/attachments/rayd-jpg.35967/

Now, if you look at the finished product, you can see that It's entirely different, and you can understand why I might have been disappointed. I didn't want to spend my budget on something I didn't even want in the first place. I'm sorry to the artist, but I made sure to everyone that sent me an offer what I did and didn't want, and I feel as if I shouldn't be accountable for that, and I shouldn't be obligated to pay even though I didn't even want what they made in the first place. I hired him because I really liked the sketches he made for me, and I thought what he made later on was misleading from the sketches.

I explained that I wasn't interested in continuing the project, and I did this during the sketching phase, and he took it the wrong way. I truly don't believe I should be guilty for this, especially since I didn't exploit him in any way. I thought I was being considerate for backing out as soon as I did, and would see why it would be a problem if I did this later or when the piece was done.

I really feel that if I genuinely felt I was being met with a misleading product, and made sure to back out during the early stages, that I shouldn't be held accountable.

Edited at 2018-08-24 03:20 am (UTC)
drowninginbooks
Aug. 24th, 2018 06:17 am (UTC)
I wish i could get paid but, I am posting here to inform other artists and give fair warning. My immediate take away was never again to work without at least something up front. thanks for the feedback, everyone.

If there's a way repost one full months worth of back and forth on discord more easily than uploading screen caps, I'd be willing to share, but I don't feel a need to waste time "proving" my own experience. for a month of art work I was actively checking in and receiving nothing except positive feedback and specific edits which were immediately made.

I have to use the time I have now to make rent. Information distributed, so artists can know.
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Aug. 24th, 2018 10:35 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hytyle - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:54 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Aug. 24th, 2018 10:33 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fawkatronic - Aug. 24th, 2018 10:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - radiomutt - Aug. 24th, 2018 11:48 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - epiceternity - Aug. 24th, 2018 01:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - epiceternity - Aug. 25th, 2018 02:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cknsausage - Aug. 24th, 2018 04:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - rendrassa - Aug. 24th, 2018 07:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lavenderpandy - Aug. 24th, 2018 08:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - spartanwerewolf - Aug. 25th, 2018 07:33 am (UTC) - Expand
whoop_zi
Aug. 24th, 2018 03:42 pm (UTC)
Yikes, as if the beware wasn't warranted enough, hytyle's response really solidifies this.
prettykittyaz
Aug. 24th, 2018 05:10 pm (UTC)
Yikes!! Beware warranted. As a person who has had similar issues in the past as this... it is best to just pay them what you do owe and cut your losses. You made an agreement to pay them $60 and $40 on completion because you canceled you are obligated to pay that $60. Take it as a lesson learned.
hytyle
Aug. 24th, 2018 05:45 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm not giving in to artist bias, here. I already took this issue to several public forums and I've been reassured that I was in the right multiple times, and frankly I'm more lenient to believing those who can relate to this situation. In fact, I was told to ignore this completely by an ex-FA moderator, but I thought I could change more minds. I regret deleting our conversations because If I had not, I'd have much more solidity to my claims.

I'm following the terms that were written and what we discussed before all of this. I've commissioned 10's of artists multiple times who can vouch for my credibility as a commissioner, and one post isn't going to change that. Anyone outside of AB who believes this one thread without doing some of their own digging or evaluation of the person is unlikely, and I will undoubtedly not be posted here again, as this is the only circumstance ever that I'd do what I did (which I'm still adamant about in my beliefs.)

Again, I'm just following the terms that were written and discussed, and I still don't think I'm in the wrong. I'm just going to continue keep things positive and trustworthy on my end and the community will show me the fruits of my labor. Just because I made one mistake, doesn't mean that artists won't do some of their own research, and if they do, they'll find that I've already commissioned many pieces, multiple being from the same artists. Intimidation isn't a factor in whether or not I'm going to use my only budget to pay for damage control.

(Buuut, yeah. If you're an artist in the future who's reading this, I assure you'll find me to be an honest person if you speak to me about it. I'll give you my honest opinion about this story and I'll show you proof of my credibility.)

My apologies, but I've since taken my money elsewhere with another artist who's going to work with the same instruction, and I'm likely going to be much happier with their work. Thank you all for your time.

Add me on these if you want to contact me any further. (or if you want to slap it on here with a caution label lol.)

Telegram - @KnightOfMarble
Discord - Rayd#2199


Game over. (not sorry for this reference btw.)
prettykittyaz
Aug. 24th, 2018 06:01 pm (UTC)
I would personally like proof of these people coming forward saying you are in the right as anyone who is an artist or frequent buyer would not agree with you abandoning your responsibilities. As for me I am personally blacklisting you from any sales due to your immaturity to own up to what you need to pay.
(no subject) - dragontripmon - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - prettykittyaz - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - dragontripmon - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shinmaxwell - Aug. 25th, 2018 03:03 am (UTC) - Expand
mod comment - whoop_zi - Aug. 25th, 2018 12:19 am (UTC) - Expand
................... - dragontripmon - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poizenkat - Aug. 24th, 2018 06:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - witchyriss - Aug. 24th, 2018 08:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kstormcrow - Aug. 24th, 2018 08:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Zaukodar - Aug. 24th, 2018 08:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - radiomutt - Aug. 24th, 2018 10:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lavenderpandy - Aug. 24th, 2018 11:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - spartanwerewolf - Aug. 25th, 2018 07:44 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - rendrassa - Aug. 27th, 2018 05:16 am (UTC) - Expand
poizenkat
Aug. 24th, 2018 06:22 pm (UTC)
I am so sorry to hear that this happened to you as it looks like you put a large amount of work into this. is there any way you could perhaps sell the lineart to be completed as someone elses character to make up for at least some of the time you lost?
kestral_kitsune
Aug. 24th, 2018 07:23 pm (UTC)
beware well needed seriously. was there missteps? yeah, but the commissioner should have really went 'hey i'm not liking this can we cancel' and be refunded for the amount that was NOT done. artist gets paid for what they've done and buyer can go find someone else.

this entire thing sounds like they're trying to get the work for free via the old 'oh I don't like it but its basically done, btw can i get all my money back never mind i was paying you for this service.'

its like hiring a roofer to roof your place, decide when is basically done that you don't like it and demand that they pay you back for it all while leaving the roof on.

hytyle doesn't seem like they want any solution that isn't them getting their money back and robbing the artist of the amount owed for the work done. and they're going so far as to make sure their seen as the victim.
celestinaketzia
Aug. 24th, 2018 07:25 pm (UTC)
The client never paid, so in essence they left the artist high and dry despite the sheet being nearly done.
(no subject) - kestral_kitsune - Aug. 30th, 2018 10:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - dragontripmon - Aug. 24th, 2018 07:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
naughtysav
Aug. 24th, 2018 09:24 pm (UTC)
I'd also like to see proof of this so called 'harassment' they keep going on about, having a beware put on you for bad behavior is in no way harassment.
DespyBrawks
Aug. 24th, 2018 09:46 pm (UTC)
Beware well warranted. This is basically a case where the person is admitting what they did wrong to garner sympathy but doesnt want to actually own up to/owe anything for said "mistakes". I hope you're able to get some compensation for the work you've done!
dragontripmon
Aug. 25th, 2018 12:58 am (UTC)
Hytle posted a new journal on the final word here. He pretty much has realized how wrong he is. Though to be honest he should actually unblock the artist and pay her back.

https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/8853697/
celestinaketzia
Aug. 25th, 2018 01:02 am (UTC)
Since he's asking in an official capacity:

Hytyle: Bewares are archived and will be restored if they're ever deleted. What you can do is earn your resolved tag by paying for the work completed so far.
(no subject) - kstormcrow - Aug. 25th, 2018 05:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
kaiiju
Aug. 25th, 2018 01:35 am (UTC)
This has my blood BOILING. I don't know how somebody can be so blind regarding their own wrongdoings. I hope nobody accepts another commission from this dude.
shinmaxwell
Aug. 25th, 2018 02:55 am (UTC)
Beware well warranted. Regardless of "disliking" the work done, there was just that done: work.

The artist should be paid a bit for what they did at least, that would only be right. That's what a COMMISSION is..paying for the work.

They also should have told them sooner that it wasn't what they wanted to be honest. Again...beware warranted.
lunahasawa996
Aug. 25th, 2018 07:10 am (UTC)
Seriously? They agree to paying partial, yet come up with every back paddled lie and excuse to get out of it?

Take this as a learning experience. Don't start work until that cash is in your pocket. On top of that i feel that even if they DID pay this person would be one of those "unauthorized payment transaction" people to swindle you out of money and get free art. All of this reads "i got free art so now i dont have to pay, but im going to make every lie and excuse possible to make it seem like i didnt do that and didnt want the art acrually anymore."

Seriously. If you put in writing that you agree to do something, you are obligated to do it. it is a form of a contract, and breaking that is obviously subject to backlash. This is why people go to court, because x- person asks for a job to be done then come time to pay up they back out of it trying to get a free pass. Own up to your shady actions and just pay up already. Once you do, this supposed "harassment", which is more like like a parent scolding their child for misbehaving, will end.
hytyle
Aug. 25th, 2018 07:21 am (UTC)
Since about 2 hours ago, I had already owned up for my actions, which can be found here. I plan on paying $30-$60 without taking the art dependent on what me and the artist agree on and what we believe is fair whenever we happen to contact each other. The harassment wasn't about the AB post by the way, moreso how he's been continuously making posts publicly calling me out and sending his friends my way on FA to insult me. This is and has been a very stressful situation for me, and I want to be done with it. Not to make this a point or anything, but I have heart palpitations whenever I even think about all of this, so I'm all for resolving it as quickly as possible.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threads/being-witchhunted-by-an-artist-advice.1650285/page-2#post-6062876



Edited at 2018-08-25 07:22 am (UTC)
(no subject) - radiomutt - Aug. 25th, 2018 08:21 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lunahasawa996 - Aug. 25th, 2018 08:48 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hytyle - Aug. 25th, 2018 08:54 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lunahasawa996 - Aug. 25th, 2018 08:43 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hytyle - Aug. 25th, 2018 09:06 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lunahasawa996 - Aug. 25th, 2018 09:17 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hytyle - Aug. 25th, 2018 09:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - celestinaketzia - Aug. 25th, 2018 04:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - drowninginbooks - Aug. 25th, 2018 04:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hytyle - Aug. 25th, 2018 06:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lunahasawa996 - Aug. 25th, 2018 07:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hytyle - Aug. 25th, 2018 08:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lunahasawa996 - Aug. 25th, 2018 09:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
mod comment - whoop_zi - Aug. 25th, 2018 10:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
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