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Here's their email to me reguarding adult materials: [click]



Here's the Twitter conversation about chargebacks and reversals.
PART 1
PART 2
PART 3

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( 14 comments — Leave a comment )
wuvvumsoc
Jul. 10th, 2017 12:14 am (UTC)
I think more people need to be aware that seller protection does not cover digital/intangible goods. I know a lot of people are still spreading the information that invoices will protect you from chargebacks -- they do not.

I do wonder if there are really many options if the item being delivered is adult in nature. This is why I don't really have a plan to defend myself against any chargebacks. Rather, I do the following:

* Try to draw from a number of small transactions from a wide variety of customers, so that any particular chargeback would be $50 or less.

* If one particular client is buying a lot from me (in my case it's over $100 of transactions in a short amount of time) then I ask for references. I ask the client if they've worked with another artist, and then ask a few artists how that client was. Other artists have been quite happy to provide reference to me. In a way it's kind of like going through a resume on a client. I also feel like clients that are ready to provide references of other artists they worked with are quite trustworthy and reliable.

* I don't think it hurts to check if the other person is using a verified paypal. I feel like verified paypal accounts are less likely to be treated as throw-away accounts for scamming. But that doesn't mean you need to rule out doing business with an unverified account.

For super huge transactions I do think it might be good to cut paypal out of the middle. If you have something that's going to be hundreds or thousands of dollars to complete, I feel there should probably be a written check and a solid contract in place for that. But, I don't know if this is very practical for people such as fursuit sellers to deal in something else other than paypal.


I just feel in the end it's good to build a contingency plan around different scenarios, based on how much you'd lose out of a potential chargeback. In my case maybe it'd be like $20~$50, but for someone else it'll likely be a lot more.
bornesb
Jul. 10th, 2017 12:23 am (UTC)
Pretty sad news for artists.

I know there is at least one service out there that allows for secured delivery of downloads with receipts. Unfortunately, I could not find it in my quick google.

However, what may also be of use is a service like DocuSign. It is a service dealing with electronic contracts. This gives proof that your customer read your TOS and/or understands what they are getting into. It is not ironclad with what Paypal has said, but it should help in their claims process if the customer says "I didn't actually order that!"

If it is an especially large transaction, it should hold up in court, as well. I've used DocuSign quite a few times when dealing with landlords and rentals.

The more expensive packages allow the signers to upload attachments. So if they upload concept art, which you follow, and then they claim "Item not as described" you can point to the files they uploaded with the contract and be like "I did exactly what the references said to do!"

Of course, it may be easier to just choose a completely different payment/transaction service alltogether. I have heard some people are going to commiss.io
leahtaur
Jul. 10th, 2017 03:20 am (UTC)
How do people get paid through commiss.io? If it's not Paypal is it directly to your bank account?
bornesb
Jul. 10th, 2017 03:26 am (UTC)
I believe they use Stripe.
leahtaur
Jul. 10th, 2017 08:52 am (UTC)
Interesting, I didn't know that - thanks.
celestinaketzia
Jul. 10th, 2017 10:22 am (UTC)
That's a bit scary, because Stripe also doesn't allow adult content. Commiss.io doesn't have anything in their policies about it.
frisket17
Jul. 10th, 2017 02:45 pm (UTC)
If helpful, I generally use money order.
I will do personal check, but only once it has gone through (before I start work)
Not everyone is comfortable with that, I know, but generally in the decade+ I've done commissions, I (nor my commissioners)have had issues with it.

metallik_hasse
Jul. 10th, 2017 03:04 pm (UTC)
Nothing against you, of course, but I've been burned enough not to trust using something I can't dispute if the artist flakes.
rabid_sarin
Jul. 10th, 2017 11:01 pm (UTC)
If you happen to remember or stumble across the secure download with receipt program/site please let us know!
intj_reflection
Jul. 11th, 2017 03:09 am (UTC)
Mileage may vary, but my partner had a payment pulled twice from their account when the artist insisted on using commiss.io. The artist then had to wait for an admin to manually reverse the transaction and none were available when it was discovered. It was handled fairly promptly after the fact but the whole thing a bad taste in my mouth.
mortymaxwell
Jul. 11th, 2017 01:08 pm (UTC)
In the second message there is a question about printing the piece and mailing it to the client. Paypal says that won't work.

I take that to mean, Paypal is saying the practice of mailing a hard copy of a digital commission to a client won't provide protection? That's good to know. I'm seeing more artists state in their TOS that they require a print or CD.


Edited at 2017-07-11 01:14 pm (UTC)
mortymaxwell
Jul. 11th, 2017 01:19 pm (UTC)
http://meow16305.deviantart.com/journal/PayPal-Chargebacks-Final-Update-663818386
http://sinpure.deviantart.com/journal/Chargeback-Info-current-669523963

I was wondering if it is possible for Paypal or a credit card company to initiate a chargebacks on their own without authorisation. I am reading about two cases on DA where several artists received charge backs and the clients claim they never initiated them. In the journals the customers explain how they had to sign affidavits that they didn't do the charge backs and then there is a lot of back and forth between the bank, the credit card companies, and the clients. Chargeback cases being closed, then reopened, no one knows where the money has gone to.

This sounds very scary to me. How can we protect ourselves from stuff like this happening?
celestinaketzia
Jul. 11th, 2017 06:37 pm (UTC)
It really isn't possible for a chargeback to just "happen". I know every bank is different, but for my CC you have to fill out a detailed form for any chargeback.

There's really nothing to stop it from happening. Regardless of what processor you use, credit cards all have the ability to issue a chargeback on a transaction.
rendrassa
Jul. 14th, 2017 05:19 am (UTC)
I try to always have the client tell me their PayPal email in whatever method of communication we're using. Discord, for instance, they tell me their email and I screenshot that, their acceptance of the piece. That way, I can prove it's the same person.

I really wish they'd open a digital goods branch, or else some other site comes along with better protection.
( 14 comments — Leave a comment )

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