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WHO: cicatrizESP/Rabid/makeshiftwings

WHERE: www.furaffinity.net/user/cicatrizesp

WHAT: It was going to be a simple waist-up, flat-color digital commission that was supposedly going to cost $10. She contacted me personally wanting to draw my character.

WHEN: What got me suspicious was that she asked for five dollars more to cover Paypal fees…Off. When it got bad was the ignoring for months on end just for a single update, she has no list if there are other commissions going on or journals telling what is going on except she is trying to get active again but then disappearing AGAIN. I wanted to do a claim, but since I gifted stupidly I cannot get it back, nor can I get a refund with my ignored reply obviously.


When she first contacted me: November 22, 2013

Proof of Payment on my part: December 5, 2013
Internally questioning change of price to pay ridiculous fees: December 5, 2013
Was Naive and gifted it... (Explained below)
She KNEW it would take it out of her '10' or else she would not have asked for more money!
Red Flag there had I known...

Getting worried at this point. But I was just being patient, polite and wondering if she okay and maybe if there was an update.

I do not how much she is taking on, she has no list or anything. So I was curious. : December 27, 2013

Couple months later after ignoring the note above, the final response from her: February 3, 2014
My response left unanswered...
EXPLAIN: At first she wanted that $10, but suddenly she wanted five more dollars to cover the Paypal fee? Paypal NEVER makes a person pay over $5 worth of fees and I never heard of it! She even said she would add in more art but I did not want it...

But I fell for it. As Naive as I was back then, I decided to gift it to her, to pay the fees by gifting to move on about it (knowing earlier that gifting usually makes the person buying to pay the fee instead, but that was it…)…It seemed to work. (Later on it is revealed to me that the fee is there to PROTECT buyers and it is against Paypal's Terms of Service for sellers to ask the buyer to pay the fee FOR THEM.)

What I did not know is that if you ‘gift’ customers can no longer be protected because you cannot issue a claim against the person you ‘gifted’ it too. I learned the hard way. No longer will I be commissioning artist that require people to ‘gift’ the money to them so they do not have to pay the fee. Unless they request adding one more dollar to the original commission to pay for it or tell how much I should pay before hand to cover it, and I WILL CHECK.

Asked for an update...http://i.imgur.com/CcINOfv.png

Two months later… I finally get a response because I noted her asking for an update… But apparently it is going to take another couple of months for my commission. Nothing was done. Was it okay? No, you do not ignore your commissioners, especially what was the reason why for the delay. You tell them first and people should understand in this circumstance, do not IGNORE them for months! I am a very patient person and commissioned a lot of artists, they would tell you this! I can give a LIST. Is it so hard to inform?

A reply...finally
I replied back to that final note that it would have been okay if she notified me earlier. No this was not okay and replied that I wanted a refund, but instead of waiting for my reply she disappeared for another two months and counting. I am done and fed up by this.

http://i.imgur.com/7KN8Pdt.png Sitting for two months :]

Funnily enough...even if I would have asked for a refund…. she might have already spent that money, including others!? This was on a journal 6 months ago (from April 22, 2014) that she was supposed to get ‘active’ again and I sent my “I want a refund note’ two months after until she disappeared again (not a surprise). So I waited even longer for nothing I am going to get back. She has done it before and I would not be surprised., People even asked for a refund there is a bunch of wrong with this... Quite sad.

http://i.imgur.com/8BM7CuY.png Artist Beware comment


As of April 22, 2014...Heh. She is on the prowl again using the same tactic on by sending people either a note supposedly selling commissions again or shouting on their page. Where is my supposed commission? My money? Not done? Gone? Go figure. I can only warn so much by leaving this up on my profile and for the most part leaving the site.

June 10, 2014: I have blocked this user on Fur-affinity a long time ago because she ignored me anyway. I do not expect it to ever be resolved at all except I want this to be added to her thread. If she wants this to be resolved, she can resend/gift me my money back... But this will be a warning to others that she has not changed in the slightest.

July 3, 2014: (Also added her other name to the title) On June 18, 2014 We have come to a slight agreement. The person is supposedly going to refund me on July 3rd as stated herself and I allowed it with the exception of three conditions; it is all the money I paid for which includes the fees, one of her names is on there so I know, and a message that has saying that she is unable to complete the service that she was paid for and is refunding my money back.

I included that she can contact me here or on Furaffinity( as I unblocked her for this reason) that if she wants to make sure the paypal e-mail is correct that I can tell her/give it if anything.

http://i.imgur.com/9fkv5xB.png Dead-line

I have yet to receive any kind of payment... I will wait until it hits 12 a.m before updating this regarding if it is done or not like said. If it does not happen, I am not going to listen to any more excuses as I have lost patience with this person.

July 4, 2014: It is forty past mid-night and have not received anything. She could not even hold up to her own deadline, not a surprise at all. This will stay unresolved until further notice...

http://i.imgur.com/WC9tXFE.png No payment received.

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Do not go after persons posted about here, by leaving comments on their art pages.
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( 44 comments — Leave a comment )
Jun. 16th, 2014 06:47 pm (UTC)
Hello! We've approved this post, but it still needs:

1. An LJ-cut. Please see here for help on how to do one.

2. Your post has an error displaying on dark backgrounds. Take your entire post, copy, paste it into notepad. Then copy and paste it back into this post under "plain text". That will fix the issue.
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:13 pm (UTC)
Hey! Thank you for approving!

1. I think I did it. For some reason Live Journal is acting funny and making it cluttered after. But it shows the scissors around the text if you edit the entry...Following this guide-line "Rich Text editor: Highlight the text you want to cut, then press the button (). In the dialog box, you can replace "Read more..." with another word or phrase to link to the entire entry. When creating or editing an entry, the text included in the is surrounded by dashed lines and small split scissors images"

2. That is odd, I did what you said and basically it destroyed the previous version of my entry with the spoilers, so instead I just made it simple links. Hope it works now!

Live-Journal is really confusing or is having some problems. Or I am just dumb to it in general, but I hope it is okay now! If not, I will keep trying at it so it does!!!
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:17 pm (UTC)
It looks good now, thank you!

LJ just changed their posting page, so weird errors appear to be happening to everyone.
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:31 pm (UTC)
I think I'm missing something, here. Where did she ask you to send the paypal money as Gift?
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:34 pm (UTC)
EDIT: Originally was, "It is explained below"
Now: *Please read previous post. It is explained...

I was naive back then and knew that the gifting option pays that fee so I decided to use it. (without knowing the consequences it could bring) I never had a problem with it because the artist that I paid were usually credited, active and professional.

The whole point here is that I still did not get my commission anyway. Doesn't mean she is excused for not refunding it back when she read my note eventually.

Edited at 2014-06-16 07:42 pm (UTC)
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:51 pm (UTC)
Ah...I see now. Well yes, even if they didn't specifically ask for it to be sent as a gift ( which some people do ), she still ripped you off. There was a written contract between both of you and she didn't follow through. Even still, I'll stand by my original advice and say that no matter who it is you are buying from, always check off the goods or services box. Real professionals aren't going to mind paying a transaction fee, and it will protect you from something like this in the future.
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:43 pm (UTC)
Sorry to hear about that...
Well, it's good that a site like this exists to help warn others about these situations. It definitely sounds like an outright con to me. The fact that she is avoiding you and now trying the same thing on other people pretty much confirms that. I'm afraid as far as Paypal is concerned, you are right, you are pretty much out of luck for getting your money back through them if you sent it as a gift. At least be sure to always check off goods or services from now on, even if someone tries to talk you into using the gift option for payment. That in and of itself it a red flag to me. It shows someone is willing to be dishonest to save a few cents on a transaction fee, so who knows what else are the willing to do to gain even more.

Jun. 16th, 2014 08:15 pm (UTC)
Re: Sorry to hear about that...
Yeah, this site is very useful! And I wished I had utilized it better....

Yep! I am very aware haha, it is red flag warnings that I now know to look out for!

@At the other comment above yours!

Exactly, it is no excuse and to be honest I now tack on a dollar to help fees or pay for them completely now to be nice because I know of this... Just the fees, it gets people all the time and usually the whole 'gift' or 'goods and services' is a big argument...

Wish it was not so complicated :[
But yes, I do now check the goods/services no matter what!
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:44 pm (UTC)
In regards to the fees... First, paypal takes a percentage, so it certainly can take upwards of $5, especially if you're charging higher amounts. Second, artists cannot specifically charge the fee- it is against paypal's TOS and can get your account shut down. Instead of specifically charging the fees, one should be aware of them and price accordingly (like adding an extra $5, $10 etc, on ALL prices, depending on the initial price) to make up for the fee.

Just wanted to clarify that for you, since you had some wrong info! :)
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:51 pm (UTC)
Hmm, that's interesting!

Well, the fee for her was NOT $5 and it turned out to be a 59 cents...

And I will consider it! Be easier for artist to use the fee-calculator to tack on after the accept the person... This whole fee thing is weird. And I have never met an artist with a $5 fee unless they are in far parts in certain countries where I could imagine it be implemented....

But I doubt I would do business with that person unless they do not make me use the gift option, credited, etc... Haha.

Thank you for the info!
Jun. 16th, 2014 07:54 pm (UTC)
Yeah, for something like $10, it's not a high fee at all.

It's not really easier. Just calculate it into the base prices. Or eat the fee (which most people, myself included, do anyway, since it's pretty inconsequential!) By calculating after the fact and charging the fee specifically, you're going against paypal's TOS,

Jun. 16th, 2014 08:02 pm (UTC)
Ugh so confusing haha. If it is a low fee I am not sure why artist do not wanna pay it, but basically the set price would not be paid because of this fee. Some artists do not have a problem with the fee, but a lot do...

I usually tack on a dollar to help pay the fees if anything now, but checking the goods and services of course.

Argh TOS basdkkhgfdlkh
Jun. 16th, 2014 08:07 pm (UTC)
LOL! Well speaking as an artist, thats what we sign up for when we accept paypal, and we should be prepared for it! :) There's nothing wrong with adding a "tip" to help cover it yourself, though! :) if anything, most artists would be very grateful!
Jun. 16th, 2014 09:45 pm (UTC)
I dunno, 5$ seems very, very high to me. My 60$ commissions have cents to a dollar or two for a fee. So 5$ fee for a 10$ commission doesn't seem right, but maybe it's different for people depending on where they live and such?
Jun. 16th, 2014 09:49 pm (UTC)
Oh, no... I meant that the fee paypal takes isn't high off of something like $10, not that a $5 fee is reasonable! :) Sorry haha!
Jun. 16th, 2014 09:51 pm (UTC)
Oh whoops, my bad!

But ya, makes me wonder if they wanted some extra cash since almost all that 5$ would be going to them.
Jun. 17th, 2014 11:43 am (UTC)
I think it might have to do where people live as well, I usually get 1 to 2 dollars of a fee regardless of base price and I'm not from the states, so I think it has some sort of modification there.

But never 5 dollars though!
(Deleted comment)
Jun. 16th, 2014 10:26 pm (UTC)
It's not only you. I probably should have known that it was not just genuine interest of the character either...

That is an option I could try, thank you for telling me.

Now that I think about it, it would make more sense if there was more money, there would be a bigger Edit:: *fee (forgot to add), but probably since I do not buy commissions that is above $50 I have never seen it.

Thank you for clearing it up.

Edited at 2014-06-16 10:27 pm (UTC)
Jun. 17th, 2014 01:31 am (UTC)
Is it just me or does it seem really shady for her to message strangers out of nowhere asking them to buy a commission?

this. i dunno, i just find it really off-putting when people do that, it's like having a salesperson come to your door, haha.
Jun. 20th, 2014 02:20 pm (UTC)
I agree, I'm not really comfortable with unwanted solicitation either. If I wanted more of that I'd head over to Canal Street.
Jun. 17th, 2014 05:15 am (UTC)
Is it just me or does it seem really shady for her to message strangers out of nowhere asking them to buy a commission?

I've had this done to me a couple of times and while I don't see it as super shady (money is money, after all), I do feel uncomfortable about it. It feels like I'm expected to buy a commission regardless of whether I like the art/artist or not.

At least the artists are okay taking a polite decline and a wish of good luck, and don't push it, but it's still unsettling.
Jun. 17th, 2014 06:17 am (UTC)
It is shady, I've honestly laughed people into oblivion for approaching me over IM or forum PMs to ask me to commission THEM, but this was ages ago (the dark times of 2005).

I know someone who is rather famous for the large quantity of commissions they get of two particular characters of theirs; so people would hound them with the same strategy used here. And it got to the point they made a notice saying any communications regarding artists going 'hay u got monies, commission me!' or any variant were going to get blocked, and their sales pitch chucked into the spam folder.

Which is how it SHOULD be. No one freaking likes those spam emails; so when an artist tries to get you to pay them for art and you didn't approach first? Byeeee~
Jun. 17th, 2014 06:00 pm (UTC)
Sometimes I offer special sales to my friends over IM and I feel really bad about it because I feel like a sketchy salesman. XD
Jun. 17th, 2014 12:48 pm (UTC)
Wow, that's pretty shitty. I mean it's sad that there was a death in the family but that happened like 3 months after she asked you to commission her. Not only that, but if she's asking people to commission her, you'd think she'd have a sketch ready immediately at least.

And of course the fact that she asked you to commission her, and then slapped $5 onto the already $10 for "paypal fees" is sleazy as hell. The fees are not that much.
Nikki Reyes
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:52 am (UTC)
..I'm sorry you think I'm sleezy Gin :/
& actually, my dad went into a coma on the 27th of October. So literally right after this girl commissioned me, things went to hell.
You know me. You know I'm not out to rip people off.

Edited at 2014-06-18 01:19 pm (UTC)
Jun. 23rd, 2014 09:05 pm (UTC)
Yeah I'm sorry too. I am sorry to hear about the death in your family- my mother and father are both gone, so I have been there before.

That said, if you ask someone to commission you, I would think you'd at least have a concept sketch done, and want to churn out artwork for the person as soon as humanly possible, like, immediately. If the death happened immediately after (you asked them to) commission you, you should have refunded the money right then and there.

Personally, I don't spend any of the commission money I receive until I have completed the commission- so that way I have earned it and I don't need to provide a refund. If something like a death in the family happened, that way I could message the person, apologize, and provide a refund. That's how to run a business. You don't need to provide personal details. Just refund and move on. Get your life in order and come back to take more commissions when you can.

There's never any excuse to run off with someone's money when you have not provided them with the service you promised. Death in the family or not.
Jun. 17th, 2014 08:05 pm (UTC)
Kind of related, but there's a nifty fee calculator that I use sometimes:
Jun. 17th, 2014 08:13 pm (UTC)
Yep! I posted that up there :D
I am glad if it helps others, I think it is pretty neat!
Jul. 3rd, 2014 02:50 pm (UTC)
Just as a side note, it's technically against PayPal's TOS to include the fees in the charge. If they notice you doing it or someone reports you doing it, you can get in trouble. And it can be really obvious to PayPal if they see a bunch of transactions, for example, of $51.80 instead of $50, because the amount becomes oddly specific with fees included.

It's covered under this section of the User Agreement, because they consider charging the customer the fee as charging them extra to use PayPal:
4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

So, in the end, it's probably not worth getting your account trashed and potentially have funds frozen over a dollar or two.
Jul. 3rd, 2014 03:20 pm (UTC)
In addition to this, PayPal fees should be deducted come tax time rather than trying to skirt them.
Nikki Reyes
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:51 am (UTC)
Okay. First of all, my life has been absolute shit for the last 7 months. I would go into detail but it doesn't really matter in this case.
One thing that happened is my moms dog broke my tablet pen & so I'm trying to save up to get a new one. It shouldn't be long but..I can't use what I don't have.

I never meant to ignore you; my life has been hectic & I rarely get on the computer, let alone FA. I realize that's not good business ethic & I'm sorry, but when I'm so depressed I can't get out of bed..

On top of the other crap, which I know probably sounds like shitty excuses, I don't usually set deadlines because I don't know what might happen.
& I can;t do refunds because I'm flat -broke-.
But I will be glad to do your commission traditionally if you like.

I REALLY do like your character. & about the $5; I didn't know there was a fee calculator. So I'm very sorry about that.
& the account I use is my grandmas because I don't have a bank account or anything.

Again, I'm very sorry; I'm not trying to rip you off. Sometimes unforeseeable things happen & screw up everything.
Jun. 18th, 2014 05:23 am (UTC)
Then you should not be doing "commissions" anymore. Especially since you cannot deliver, life is unmanageable, and are 'barely' active as you put it.

Taking people's money then turn around saying "I used your money, but now I am broke again so I cannot pay you back!" Is not helping your case. You had MONTHS and you could have gotten/saved at least $11 by then.

You have done this before!


I will quote this... "Commissions are NOT a valid source of "quick cash"..." And you still did that! This is pretty much fraud/scamming by making off with people's money, my own included, for your own needs and ignored what you were paid to do until you got in trouble, AGAIN.

I am done getting art at this point and I want a refund like I wanted months ago, sorry. This will stay unresolved until it happens... or it does not.
Jun. 18th, 2014 05:51 am (UTC)
Absolutely - couldn't have phrased it better myself!
Nikki Reyes
Jun. 18th, 2014 01:25 pm (UTC)
I'm really not trying to scam anybody. I have no other way to make money as I pretty much have to take care of my grandma.
You will be refunded.
Is the 3rd of next month okay with you?

Again, I'm sorry this has dragged on. My dad went into a coma literally a day or two after you commissioned me. It was just really bad timing.
Jun. 18th, 2014 06:08 pm (UTC)
I am growing very weary. You should have told me it was a bad time and refunded me back like you should have. Stop coming up with more reasons why you could not do what you were supposed to do.

And you can do that on the 3rd of July, and this will stay UNRESOLVED until it happens and with these 2 conditions...:

1. It must be the full amount or GIFTED back to me, so I can fully get my refund ($10.59) for what I paid for and never received. Do not over/under pay or I will send it back. This thread will stay unresolved until it happens.

(Just because I do not trust you now... Try to take my money back for whatever reason after, I will contact a Mod and this will go back to being unresolved. Screen-shots will be provided.)

2. It must have a note (little message box at the bottom you can use) of your one of your user-names: CicatrizESP/Rabid/makeshiftwings/Nikki Reyes will be just fine for it AND with this saying that: "(YOU are) I am refunding you (me) back your (my) money because I (you) were not able to complete the service that I (you) was (were) paid for at the time.

Delete the words in the parentheses.

***If you need the paypal e-mail or you are not sure if the paypal e-mail is the correct one, contact me here or on Furaffinity (I will unblock you for the time being) and I will give it to you so there is no mistakes or mishap of sending it to the wrong paypal e-mail.

It is kind of sad that I have to do this...
All of this could have been avoided at the very beginning...

Until then... I hope your life gets sorted out and turn for the better. I will be waiting for something... or nothing I suppose.
Jun. 18th, 2014 05:50 am (UTC)
Real talk time.
Honestly, looking at the track record you've set, it might behoove you to stop doing commissions all together until you can get yourself organized.

Having a death in the family is horrible - when my grandfather died, not only did it break our hearts, it broke half of my family apart - so I know what you're saying when life becomes extremely hectic after a death.

But when you're paid to do a job, you've got to deliver - if life becomes so hectic that you really don't think you can finish, it's better to contact the people who have commissioned you and say "I can't do this right now, if you want a refund, I don't have the money at the moment, but let me set out a plan/a time when I can get your money back to you," and stick to that time, instead of just ignoring them. Not only is that better business practice, it's just downright polite.

You gotta look back at the mistakes you've made and learn from them - that's the only way to get and keep yourself out of hot water.

Good luck.
Nikki Reyes
Jun. 18th, 2014 01:23 pm (UTC)
Re: Real talk time.
I've noted people with pretty much exactly the same words you said.
My grandfather & grandmother have raised me since I was five. So he was like a father to me, because my real dad was never around, so I'm in a very deep depression right now.
Jun. 18th, 2014 05:58 pm (UTC)
Re: Real talk time.
So far, since I have seen you commenting, all youve really done is use family deaths or problems as an excuse, which in my own opinion, is a bit messed up. I highly doubt that OP wants to read a bunch of excuses, while they basically had just lost hard earned cash. Keep life issues out of business, it does not belong there. Fact is, you owe them their money back because you didnt do the job you were paid to. You shouldnt be commissioning if your life is hectic, you cannot delay paying them back forever with excuses either. Im sorry you are at a rough patch in your life, but that should mean that you shouldnt be taking commissions, and instead spend time with your family. If I were you, I would stop listing off all your life issues on this beware, and seriously consider paying them back.

Everybody has their own issues they need to deal with, you never considered if the OP is having issues with family/life at all, they had to earn that cash they put in YOUR pocket. You are not the only one with a complex life, not once have you seemed to consider that at all.
Jun. 20th, 2014 02:17 pm (UTC)
Re: Real talk time.
"Keep life issues out of business, it does not belong there."
In agreement especially with this.

When you take money for a job, you do that job. If for whatever reason you are unable to complete what you were paid to do, you are obligated by law to refund that money. Unless a contract or verbal agreement to the contrary was documented, you need to stop making excuses and just refund your client.
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:46 pm (UTC)
Re: Real talk time.
When you have a "real" job and someone dies you only get 3 days bereavement at most. Yes, it hurts but you have obligations and it is no real excuse to either not do them, or to not refund those you owe.
It is horrible when something happens to a family member, my mom thought she wouldn't be as affected as she was when my grandfather died and tried to go to work, she ended up taking the 3 days bereavement because she started to sob uncontrollably at work, but after the days were up she had to go back, partially because a hint of normalcy can actually help with the healing and grief, too.
Jun. 22nd, 2014 08:34 am (UTC)
Re: Real talk time.
Depends on the job; my management were amazing when my grandmother died in 2012, and my grandfather in 2013- they wrote me off the schedule for two weeks each time, and didn't even make me take it as holiday time. Some jobs are great about it, others can be really shitty.
Jun. 23rd, 2014 06:19 am (UTC)
Re: Real talk time.
True, but the federally required minimum us 3 days, so I was going by that standard. A lot of places can be more generous, but in a work force sometimes you got to deal with the standard/a tough hand.
Jun. 22nd, 2014 08:37 am (UTC)
I can;t do refunds because I'm flat -broke-.

You should never be "flat broke" when it comes to refunding, because that money should be sitting in your account, unspent, until the work is complete.

Telling commissioners to pay your paypal fees, or to send payment as a gift to avoid them is against Paypal's TOS, and can get your account shut down. You need to factor the fees into your prices, or eat them, but never pass them directly on to your customer.
Merus PP
Dec. 31st, 2016 12:20 am (UTC)
My paypal history won't go back that far, but after reading this I felt so bad for Rabid (As I considered her a good friend.) that I asked her how much she owed everyone.

She said $30 would cover it, so I gave her that without thinking too much about it. Might have been in december, come to think of it. It could have been a yule gift, so to speak.

Now I'm suspecting that
A: She owes people a LOT more than that.
B: None of you received even a penny of those $30.

This makes me both sad and angry.

(Yes, that was incredibly stupid of me.)
( 44 comments — Leave a comment )


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